Exception to Policy (ETP) information

[deaddebate]

At this stage, it's probably better to ask forgiveness than permission and try to submit direct to AFMSA. However your FS and his boss, the SGP, may not be willing to take that risk of upsetting their MAJCOM buddies. If so, sending the waiver to AFRC may not be good because they similarly may not want to jump straight to AFMSA because AETC owns it. But, AETC was the one that shut you down, so you're hesitant to go back to them, but they are the waiver authority.

So, if they won't go straight to AFMSA, try to go to AETC because it'll probably end up there anyway and going to AFRC first will just delay processing by a few weeks.

The reason I can't give you a very good answer is because this doesn't happen often. Being a Reservist is the monkey wrench because it adds another middle man.

ETA: Funny to think of an O-6/O-5 at the MAJCOM as a middle man, but that's the truth in this situation. You have to go very high for approval once you get denied.

Edited April 25, 2015 by deaddebate

[sab245]

As some of you may have seen from my post over a month ago, I was disqualified from Yale's AFROTC program due to a Factor V Leiden (blood coagulation disorder) disqualification. I started the ETP process, got my Senator's backing and written endorsement and whatnot, but still got shut down at the detachment level. My GPA is not great at the moment, and that was the reason (the only reason, actually) given for not starting the process. I had great in-corps experience, high PFT scores, and high standardized test scores but even one component was enough to stop it.

I have basically accepted that I will never serve, but I am not going to do so fully until I've tried every avenue first. 

I've read this entire thread and tried to read the supporting AFI's, but I still have a couple of questions about ETP's, which, aside from a change in medical policy, are probably my last options:

 

Are medical ETP's really only for ROTC cadets/Rated Applicants coming through OTS? Could a medically disqualified OTS applicant (with no intention of going rated) try and start a process for a Medically-related ETP or would they just get that shut down? It seems like all mention of ETP's relates to UPT or flying duties.

So, what about other, random AFSC's, like Chaplain, JAG, Medical Professionals, or even enlisted personnel? If they have a disqualifying medical condition could they request an ETP as they try to go through accessioning, or is there no precedent for medical ETP's outside of rated career areas?

 

Hopefully that makes sense. If not I will be happy to rephrase.

I'm basically asking whether an ETP is still possible for me outside of the ROTC-ETP route, assuming the only problem with the original ETP, GPA, is corrected.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Edited November 30, 2015 by sab245

[sab245]

Thoughts anyone? 

[Blue]

On 12/7/2015 at 9:26 PM, sab245 said:

Thoughts anyone? 

Some thoughts.  Offered for free, potentially worth what you paid for.

I think Deaddebate mentioned in another thread that your condition was waiverable for commission.  Not sure if you're right or he is, but you certainly want to clarify it.  Ultimately, make sure you see the reg yourself, and understand it.  I know that's stating the obvious, and you've probably done this already.

I don't know much about ETP's.  I looked into it briefly a long time ago.  I don't think there is anything stopping you from doing it as a civilian, ex-cadet, or whatever you want to call it.  That said, I think your chances of getting anything done will be much greater if you have someone who wears an Air Force uniform pushing things forward for you.

You have a Senator involved?  Can you expand on that?  Does your det know you've got a member of Congress involved?

Have you talked to your det about what would happen if you got your GPA up about 3.0?  What kind of GPA are they looking for before they'll help?  Or was that just an excuse to tell you no?

 

[sab245]

Thanks for the reply, Blue. It's helpful for sure.

 

As hesitant as I am to say that Deaddebate is wrong, I can't see how it's possible any other way. I got D'qued, I appealed with more information, and was told it was just not waiverable. I have a form from AETC saying disqualified for "Factor v Leiden thrombophilia". I even got in touch with someone in the SG office at the Pentagon and they verified it. I'm sure Deaddebate said that for good reason, but I have not found anyone who backs that up yet.

I believe it's waiverable for " trained assets", I.e. ROTC juniors or seniors who have gone through field training. Maybe this is the point of confusion.

 

I made my det aware of Congressional support from my home state's senator by way of a short letter of recommendation/endorsement. My commander was told that this was not enough however.

 

As far as GPA, that is a great question that I am not sure about. It may have been an excuse, I really don't know. I was not told of anything changing as far as ROTC ETP. "Thanks for trying, but don't come back" was the impression I got.

[Blue]

Deaddebate is the resident expert on these things, I'd defer to him.

As far as what's disqualifying and what's waiverable, for peace of mind I'd always strive to see the regs.  People make mistakes, just because you have a form saying "DQ'd for X," doesn't mean the person doing that form knew what he/she was talking about.  

That said, I'd venture it's more likely than not that they know what they're doing, but for peace of mind it's always good to be able to see all the regs yourself.

I've never heard of "trained asset" being used in any case when talking about ROTC.  That might be something new though.

So, yeah.  Try to make sure you understand exactly what chapter and verse of the AFI's DQ' you, and what chapter and verse of the AFI's (or other instructions/waiver guides/etc) say that it can't be waiverable.  It's one thing for someone to say something, it's another thing to see it in black-and-white in a reg.

I'm not a doc, but it would be helpful to read up on the condition, and make sure you understand how it's diagnosed.  It's possible the MEPS folks made a mistake.  If nothing else, I'm sure you'd like to get a better understanding of WTF that condition means for you personally (outside of the military).  Are you going to be at higher risk of strokes, aneurysms, etc?  Or is it something you can live with forever with no side effects?  Or is there some treatment you should get?

[stuckindayton]

4 hours ago, sab245 said:

I believe it's waiverable for " trained assets", I.e. ROTC juniors or seniors who have gone through field training. Maybe this is the point of confusion.

The reference to a "trained asset" usually means that you are an aircrew member who is trained to perform aircrew duties.  For example, someone applying for pilot training is "untrained", whereas a pilot who has 1000+ flying hours is "trained."  It's all about the money.  The AF is reluctant to spend money when there is a risk that a person may have their flying career ended early due to medical problems.  On the other hand, if the money has been spent, then it's all about keeping you flying as long as your medical condition doesn't carry the risk of sudden incapacitation.

[sab245]

Right, that was my idea of what constituted trained assets, but the person with whom I spoke at the SG office said that would have included scholarship ROTC cadets who had successfully completed Field Training and entered the Professional Officer Corps.

 

Thanks Blue for the advice on learning the specific reg, I may ask for that when I get the chance. Anyway, I didn't intend to derail the thread on to the topic of general medical waivers. Any more thoughts or advice to expand my understanding of ETP's would be appreciated. 

 

Edited December 10, 2015 by sab245

[yatalpan]

stuckindayton is correct regarding what trained asset means in relation to USAF aeromedical standard/waivers

 

[Switch408]

On 12/9/2015 at 3:55 PM, sab245 said:

Any more thoughts or advice to expand my understanding of ETP's would be appreciated. 

 

I'll throw my 2 cents in, . I'm going to give a little background on myself so that you know realistically what you're up against if you're trying for an Exception to Policy (ETP). I DO NOT say any of this to brag or toot my own horn, only so that you know the route I took to get an ETP for a Flying Class 1 (FC1) physical as an untrained asset so that I could become a pilot. 

The hearing in my right ear is considered unwaiverable by the Air Force medical community for FC1 standards. I knew this very early on but also knew that the hearing problem had never affected me while flying, so I decided to apply to USAFA as I thought that'd give me the best shot. I got in to USAFA (with a waiver for my hearing solely to commission- not to fly), maintained a relatively good GPA there, was a member of the Wings of Blue Parachute Team which got me decent face time with some of the higher ups, etc. When it came time to apply for the ETP, I first had to have my FC1 waiver denied by the medical community, at which point I could start the process. It was basically like applying to college again. It's a VERY involved application. I was told by USAFA that only 1 person in the last 7 years had gotten one, so I knew my chances were slim. That being said, I pressed on. They sent me to Wright Patt to have all kinds of crazy tests done on me so that the medical community could give their recommendation on the ETP (which will almost always be a recommendation for disapproval since they already told you they disapproved by denying a waiver), then the ETP will start up the chain. And it is a VERY long chain that it goes through- all the way to the Vice Chief of Staff of the Air Force. He/she will then approve/disapprove. I started that process my junior year at the Academy and didn't find out my ETP was approved until the summer after I graduated. So there's a timeline for you...

That being said, you have to remember that by applying, you're trying to prove to the Air Force that you're worth the risk of allowing you to fly/commission/etc whilst having a medical condition they deem as "unfit to fight" basically. And not only that, at the basic level you start at (for me it was my USAFA squadron AOC) you have to prove to them you're worth a bunch of Generals' time that will ultimately have to review your package. And obviously, it doesn't hurt to have a few generals/congressman/etc that are willing to go to bat for you. Ultimately for me, the USAFA Superintendent, a 3-Star, decided to take up my case after receiving prodding from other people I "recruited" to help in my fight. And I owe him big time for that.

Anyway, I don't say all of that to discourage anyone from applying, I just want you to know what you're up against. And I'd be happy to answer any questions if you want to PM me. Hope that helps.

Edited February 23, 2016 by ptwob408

[stuckindayton]

2 hours ago, ptwob408 said:

F'll throw my 2 cents in, . I'm going to give a little background on myself so that you know realistically what you're up against if you're trying for an Exception to Policy (ETP). I DO NOT say any of this to brag or toot my own horn, only so that you know the route I took to get an ETP for a Flying Class 1 (FC1) physical as an untrained asset so that I could become a pilot. 

The hearing in my right ear is considered unwaiverable by the Air Force medical community for FC1 standards. I knew this very early on but also knew that the hearing problem had never affected me while flying, so I decided to apply to USAFA as I thought that'd give me the best shot. I got in to USAFA (with a waiver for my hearing solely to commission- not to fly), maintained a relatively good GPA there, was a member of the Wings of Blue Parachute Team which got me decent face time with some of the higher ups, etc. When it came time to apply for the ETP, I first had to have my FC1 waiver denied by the medical community, at which point I could start the process. It was basically like applying to college again. It's a VERY involved application. I was told by USAFA that only 1 person in the last 7 years had gotten one, so I knew my chances were slim. That being said, I pressed on. They sent me to Wright Patt to have all kinds of crazy tests done on me so that the medical community could give their recommendation on the ETP (which will almost always be a recommendation for disapproval since they already told you they disapproved by denying a waiver), then the ETP will start up the chain. And it is a VERY long chain that it goes through- all the way to the Vice Chief of Staff of the Air Force. He/she will then approve/disapprove. I started that process my junior year at the Academy and didn't find out my ETP was approved until the summer after I graduated. So there's a timeline for you...

That being said, you have to remember that by applying, you're trying to prove to the Air Force that you're worth the risk of allowing you to fly/commission/etc whilst having a medical condition they deem as "unfit to fight" basically. And not only that, at the basic level you start at (for me it was my USAFA squadron AOC) you have to prove to them you're worth a bunch of Generals' time that will ultimately have to review your package. And obviously, it doesn't hurt to have a few generals/congressman/etc that are willing to go to bat for you. Ultimately for me, the USAFA Superintendent, a 3-Star, decided to take up my case after receiving prodding from other people I "recruited" to help in my fight. And I owe him big time for that.

Anyway, I don't say all of that to discourage anyone from applying, I just want you to know what you're up against. And I'd be happy to answer any questions if you want to PM me. Hope that helps.

 

Folks,

If you are considering an ETP, this is the best road map anyone will provide.  The process is completely independent of the medical route and, in fact, won't occur until medical waivers have been exhausted.  The key is to have people with clout support you.  

Thanks to ptwob408 for taking the time to post.

 

[sab245]

Thanks ptwob408 - great info. You remained humble yet you have every right to be proud of yourself for making that situation work.

I'll PM you soon.

[08Dawg]

Anybody have any recent experience with an ETP for color vision, especially on the guard/reserve side?  My story- Buff radar nav, got in before the new computerized color vision test.  Trying to go to UPT, but the color vision thing hosed me on the green portion.  Ironic thing is, my MFD is solid green and I have no problems looking at it. 

[stuckindayton]

19 hours ago, 08Dawg said:

Anybody have any recent experience with an ETP for color vision, especially on the guard/reserve side?  My story- Buff radar nav, got in before the new computerized color vision test.  Trying to go to UPT, but the color vision thing hosed me on the green portion.  Ironic thing is, my MFD is solid green and I have no problems looking at it. 

To my knowledge, there has never been an ETP for color.  In the recent past, the USAFA submitted 2 ETPs for color and both were rejected. They are no longer submitting ETPs for color as they don't expect to have them approved.  What was your score on the CCT (the computerized color test)?  If you were 55 or above you would meet the Navy's color vision requirement. 

[08Dawg]

2 hours ago, stuckindayton said:

To my knowledge, there has never been an ETP for color.  In the recent past, the USAFA submitted 2 ETPs for color and both were rejected. They are no longer submitting ETPs for color as they don't expect to have them approved.  What was your score on the CCT (the computerized color test)?  If you were 55 or above you would meet the Navy's color vision requirement. 

Red and blue I passed, green I'm 60-70 percent. 

[mrgrey]

How does a civilian apply for ETP? I was working with Reserve recruiter for unsponsored board but was not much help after DQ and now I want to apply for Guard boards but Im sure I would be a hard pass with a DQ.

I was DQ for grade 2 chondromalacia found during a labrum repair shoulder surgery that healed 100% 7 years ago, with the surgeon recommendation and H2 hearing (35db @500hz, one ear) rest of my frequencies are perfect. Everyone keeps talking about a pilot shortage, at least with regionals, is the Air Force experiencing that as well and will this help candidates enter with minor issues. I'm 25, have PPL 83 Pilot, 79 PCSM.

Like someone else said, I have pretty much accepted it. I just wanted to know I exhausted all options before I age out

[bb17]

1 hour ago, mrgrey said:

How does a civilian apply for ETP? I was working with Reserve recruiter for unsponsored board but was not much help after DQ and now I want to apply for Guard boards but Im sure I would be a hard pass with a DQ.

I was DQ for grade 2 chondromalacia found during a labrum repair shoulder surgery that healed 100% 7 years ago, with the surgeon recommendation and H2 hearing (35db @500hz, one ear) rest of my frequencies are perfect. Everyone keeps talking about a pilot shortage, at least with regionals, is the Air Force experiencing that as well and will this help candidates enter with minor issues. I'm 25, have PPL 83 Pilot, 79 PCSM.

Like someone else said, I have pretty much accepted it. I just wanted to know I exhausted all options before I age out

My understanding is that you can't apply for an ETP through an unsponsored board, although a unit I interviewed with once but was not hired by encouraged me to give it a shot anyway. The challenge with it is that you need somebody to write a letter for you and needs the support of several high ups including a two-star general and you probably can't pull that off without a unit's help. Why not get selected by a squadron and have them help you out with the ETP? You're 25 which is very young, you have time to make that work. 

[mrgrey]

On 4/10/2016 at 5:30 PM, bb17 said:

My understanding is that you can't apply for an ETP through an unsponsored board, although a unit I interviewed with once but was not hired by encouraged me to give it a shot anyway. The challenge with it is that you need somebody to write a letter for you and needs the support of several high ups including a two-star general and you probably can't pull that off without a unit's help. Why not get selected by a squadron and have them help you out with the ETP? You're 25 which is very young, you have time to make that work. 

Now that I have been officially DQ'd from Reserves, I have to disclose it on the form 24 that all Guard units require in their packages. I feel I will now be an automatic pass. 

[bb17]

18 hours ago, mrgrey said:

Now that I have been officially DQ'd from Reserves, I have to disclose it on the form 24 that all Guard units require in their packages. I feel I will now be an automatic pass. 

I'm going to chime in one last time on this thread and hopefully offer words of encouragement. I was in a situation requiring an ETP that many people told me was unworkable. I pushed forward and found a way to get selected through a Reserve unit. I'm not sure if your situation still salvageable, but my recruiter's belief is that anybody can make it through as long as they only have one thing going against them. By the way the Guard and Reserve use the same FC1 process. 

[schokie]

On April 8, 2016 at 10:43 PM, 08Dawg said:

Anybody have any recent experience with an ETP for color vision, especially on the guard/reserve side?  My story- Buff radar nav, got in before the new computerized color vision test.  Trying to go to UPT, but the color vision thing hosed me on the green portion.  Ironic thing is, my MFD is solid green and I have no problems looking at it. 

No experience with an ETP, but there might not be anything wrong with you. Have you had flight med refer you to Optomology? The vision testers at flight med are really just for screening that something MIGHT be wrong with you. I've had success with the that route when I occasionally struggle with the depth perception test. 

Also, it's entirely possible that their machine isn't calibrated correctly. I could easily see them having the screen on that laptop too dim. There was a guy in my last squadron that went long term DNIF for a vision problem. Flight med told him he'd never fly again. After fighting it for almost a year he managed to get tested at Wright Pat. Turns out flight med's machine was wrong and his vision was perfectly fine the entire time. 

[08Dawg]

On 4/13/2016 at 7:30 PM, schokie said:

No experience with an ETP, but there might not be anything wrong with you. Have you had flight med refer you to Optomology? The vision testers at flight med are really just for screening that something MIGHT be wrong with you. I've had success with the that route when I occasionally struggle with the depth perception test. 

Also, it's entirely possible that their machine isn't calibrated correctly. I could easily see them having the screen on that laptop too dim. There was a guy in my last squadron that went long term DNIF for a vision problem. Flight med told him he'd never fly again. After fighting it for almost a year he managed to get tested at Wright Pat. Turns out flight med's machine was wrong and his vision was perfectly fine the entire time. 

I had some suspicions about the tester in flight med, even though the result's been the same for a couple of years running.  I hadn't thought of ophthalmology, but I'll give that a try.  Thanks!

[tgonzo29]

 

 

Would anyone with knowledge and experience be about to steer me in the right direction?

 

 

 

My Story:

 

 

 

I am currently in the holding pattern to be selected for OTS in the upcoming AD rated board as a pilot only, and have also just applied for a UPT slot in the Oregon Air National Guard.  My ultimate goal is to be a fighter pilot, which we all know is what the Air Force is in dire need of at the moment.  I am a 25 year old civilian. Being a former junior and college hockey player, I am in excellent physical/mental condition with no history of injuries or anything that could raise a concern.  I have been going over the IFC1 requirements and meeting with my doctors in order to be as proactive as I can so if I hit a snag, I will have time to address it.  Well, I hit a snag with my vision.  I am able to see 20/15 distance and 20/20 near with the snellen chart.  When it came to the cycloplegic test, my refraction error is over the waiver limit of +4.00.  Mine are +4.50 and +5.00  Being rather farsighted, I can read small text without glasses, but after a while (say if I'm reading a chapter or an article) it becomes harder to focus and I require the aid of reading glasses.   It has never affected me in the cockpit when it comes to reading kneeboard checklists, gauges, PFD/MFD, etc. I have a valid FAA 1st Class Medical.  The doctor said that with glasses or contacts, I am able to be corrected to 20/15.  My eyes are meet the requirement in every other category.  Ultimately, the reality is that I'm in a tough spot and will I'll most likely get DQ'd for excess refraction error.  With the needs of the Air Force taken into account, I've heard that they can bend their policies a bit on a case-by-case basis.  With the current need for fighter pilots, would you say that I have a shot with my situation? 

 

 

 

ETP:

 

 

 

If I will need to apply for an ETP, I was wondering if anybody could tell me more about the process and how I need to prepare my letter/package.  I will have my Private Pilot License and working towards my instrument rating by the time of the IFC1 Physical.  I've put a ton of effort, money, and time into preparing for this career and I'd like to make sure that I am not leaving any stone unturned.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks Guys!

 

 

[stuckindayton]

Gonzo,

As you suspect, you likely are not waiverable for IFC I (Pilot applicant), but certainly could be for CSO/RPA.  I know it's not what you're shooting for, but keep it in the back of your mind.

An ETP is a non-medical process by which the line (operational folks) are disregarding what the medical folks are saying.  It has to go up to the Vice CSAF so you need some serious top cover.  At a minimum you'll likely need some flag officers who are willing to endorse you and get the ear of the three star.  It happens, but not frequently.  However, you have nothing to lose by asking.

[tgonzo29]

13 hours ago, stuckindayton said:

Gonzo,

As you suspect, you likely are not waiverable for IFC I (Pilot applicant), but certainly could be for CSO/RPA.  I know it's not what you're shooting for, but keep it in the back of your mind.

An ETP is a non-medical process by which the line (operational folks) are disregarding what the medical folks are saying.  It has to go up to the Vice CSAF so you need some serious top cover.  At a minimum you'll likely need some flag officers who are willing to endorse you and get the ear of the three star.  It happens, but not frequently.  However, you have nothing to lose by asking.

Yes, I definitely want to look more into those jobs as a plan b ahead of time.  If I ultimately couldn't be a pilot, being an aircrew would still be a great job.  RPA pilots also acquire their civilian ratings through their version of flight training so its also a good option.

I'm going to look into the process. Like you said, I have nothing to lose.  I may get surprised.  I just want to prepare well ahead of time.  I know some people who do have some connections so its definitely an avenue worth considering, especially with the pilot shortage. 

Will I likely meet more high up officers who could write on my behalf as I go through OTS? From what i've heard, speaking with a congressman/senator does very little.  Is that accurate?

[stuckindayton]

I don't think you'll meet many high ranking folks at OTS and you certainly won't get to know them well enough to have them support an ETP.  When you get an assignment, you'll have time to get to know those above you.