How to choose a fighter?

[Guest cb03t]

All this Viper and Eagle talk has got me wondering something, for you fighter guys, what was/is the reason for you choosing the fighter you did? Mission, capability, sexiness, etc??? I'm no where near any choosing point, but I'd like to hear what the guys flying fighters these days saw/see so appealing about their airframe. Thanks.

[VL-16]

I'm not speaking for everyone, but a lot of people prefer the F-16 since it has a very multifaceted mission. I personally know one guy who decided not to track to the Eagle because he was scared of washing out of the Tyndall RTU....which is a ###### reason to not do something if you ask me, but he is happy flying vipers now, so to each his/her own!

[ 08. November 2005, 19:03: Message edited by: ENJJPTorBust ]

[Hacker]

Mission is the *only* reason you should use to determine which fighter to go to.

Everything else, quite honestly, is basically the same between the airframes.

As nice as the "My First Viper Ride" story was, it could have been written about damn near any fighter.

[Guest Hoser]

My short answer, 2 are better than 1.

I personally like the Air-to-Ground role, so I wasn't that interested in the C-model.

Between the A-10, Viper and Mud Hen, it was a fairly easy choice. 2 seats and 2 engines.

If I'm TF'ing at night into a target area, I have my hands full making sure I don't fly into the ground or anything attached to it. I don't think that's the time for me to be taking patch maps with the radar or using the pod to pick which windom I want to throw a GBU-12 thru.

Additionally, another set of Mk-1 eyeballs is always a good thing when dudes are shooting led and supersonic telephone poles your way.

I would much rather come home alive, then try to beat my chest and say I'm a pus$y for not being able to do all that stuff single seat.

To add to what Hacker said, don't just think about what airplane would be cool to fly during an airshow, give some brain bytes as to which airplane you want to be in on night 1 when all the $hit starts flying.

Hoser

[ 08. November 2005, 17:58: Message edited by: Hoser ]

[Guest cb03t]

Ok I'm going to sound dumb, I thought the C-model was Air to Air, and the E-model was both...Hoser can you clarify for a tard like myself, thanks.

[Guest comanche]

cb03t you are correct, the C-model is Air to Air, and E is dual. I think he meant he wasn't interested in the C-model.

[Guest cb03t]

Ah, makes sense, didn't read it right, thanks comanche. So any other fighter guys have input on why they picked the fighter they did? Thanks to Hacker and Hoser for replying.

[Guest Crazy Joe]

Originally posted by Hoser:

My short answer, 2 are better than 1.

Between the A-10, Viper and Mud Hen, it was a fairly easy choice. 2 seats and 2 engines.

I would much rather come home alive, then try to beat my chest and say I'm a pus$y for not being able to do all that stuff single seat.

Hoser

2 seats = suck. There is nothing on earth like flying all by yourself. Fly a 1-seat jet dude. Every single night Hogs and Vipers are flying low without Mama in the back seat helping them. Every night they come home alive. Lt Col WSO Squadron Commander in my back seat, suck.

[Guest Hoser]

Originally posted by Crazy Joe:

2 seats = suck. There is nothing on earth like flying all by yourself. Fly a 1-seat jet dude. Every single night Hogs and Vipers are flying low without Mama in the back seat helping them. Every night they come home alive. Lt Col WSO Squadron Commander in my back seat, suck.

[Hacker]

Originally posted by Crazy Joe:

2 seats = suck. There is nothing on earth like flying all by yourself. Fly a 1-seat jet dude. Every single night Hogs and Vipers are flying low without Mama in the back seat helping them.

Curious...how much time do you have in 2-seat fighters? Yeah...that's about how qualified you are to judge what it's like to fly in one. All you know is what some other Viper driver has told you about it, and what you remember from having IPs sitting behind you in UPT and IFF. Sorry, bro, but flying with a WSO is nothing like flying with an IP in your back seat.

And, as to capabilities, let's talk about flying low and employing LGBs. I'm interested to hear how many F-16s are doing that, and what their hit rate is.

(Hint: They're not, and back when they did their hit rate was less than 20%.)

[Guest KoolKat]

Next one is a T.K.O. and there will be no stoppages by the bell folks. Let's get ready to rumble!

It seems like the more I have to do around the house, the more entertaining this board becomes. DAMN YOU ALL.

BENDY

[Guest rumblefish_2]

Well, I just finished the B-course so I can't tell you about war and hit rates. I know that during their trip to Iraq this summer, my bros from Tulsa dropped more times than the Strike Pigs just previously deployed. Maybe it was timing, I don't know. And it may have been onesies and twosies, but it was enough to be badass to all those involved. Yeah, I'm sure the Generals love to hear about hit rates and tonnage, so the Strike Pigs will always win that argument, but hell, the Buff is carrying targeting pods too now, so I guess they are the one with the biggest swingin' d!cks in that regard. Bottom line, I love flying with no one in my back seat. I love dropping bombs. I love pulling Gs. ACES makes a great seat. I love the Viper.

[Guest cb03t]

For those of you who went Viper over C-Model, why? Was the desire to drop ord more influential than flying and potentially never getting to engage an enemy air to air? What I'm really digging for is what is attractive about each weapon system and what turns pilots away from others. Thanks again.

[Bergman]

Originally posted by Crazy Joe:

Lt Col WSO Squadron Commander in my back seat, suck.

While I am not qualified to add a whole lot here...I just wanted to point out that if the guy is A) a WSO, B) a Lt Col, and C) a Squadron Commander...he has obviously done something right and most likely has his sh1t together. Hard to imagine, I know.

[Guest nghtswmng2]

I picked the Viper for 2 reasons: Dual role, and Single-Seat. Maybe it's just me, but I learn a thousand times better, and have much greater SA when I'm single-seat, than when I've got to waste brain-bytes trying to hear and digest what the A@#h@*E in Back has to say. Yes, I know they are just trying to help or to instruct, but I can learn more by seeing it once on my own, than with anyone giving me a PAR in my pit.

I'm the damned pilot, and the jet is an extension of me right? So get the f$&k out and let me drive.

Now I may be still in the B-Course, so whine away arguing with me about all the above, but I know how I feel, and thats what the original question was anyways right?

The Viper may be single-engine, but fighter pilots were meant to be Single-Seat, Single-Tail, and Single-Engine.

In my humble opinion...

[Guest Hoser]

Originally posted by rumblefish_2:

Yeah, I'm sure the Generals love to hear about hit rates and tonnage, so the Strike Pigs will always win that argument, but hell, the Buff is carrying targeting pods too now, so I guess they are the one with the biggest swingin' d!cks in that regard.

I never mentioned tonnage. I was purely comparing the historical hit rates using LGB's, comparing Mud Hen to Vipers.

Hoser

[BFM this]

cb03,

With my limited experience (still in the B-course) I could wax poetic on the Hog, but the first image that came to my mind while reading this thread was: Unfortunately it doesn't come in A-10 flavor, but the message is the same.

We really could start a whole new thread on the topic a la Jeff Foxworthy: You might be a Hog driver if...

Speed jokes aside, it flies like a 4X4, and is every bit as fun.

Others here could give a more accurate mission statement, but I was a big fan of the A-1 skyraders in Vietnam, so the Sandy mission was a big draw for me.

[Guest Hoser]

Originally posted by LawnDart Driver:

I picked the Viper for 2 reasons: Dual role, and Single-Seat. Maybe it's just me, but I learn a thousand times better, and have much greater SA when I'm single-seat, than when I've got to waste brain-bytes trying to hear and digest what the A@#h@*E in Back has to say. Yes, I know they are just trying to help or to instruct, but I can learn more by seeing it once on my own, than with anyone giving me a PAR in my pit.

I'm the damned pilot, and the jet is an extension of me right? So get the f$&k out and let me drive.

Not bashing on you, but like Hacker mentioned previously, unless you've flown a two seat fighter, you only have the info that other Viper guys have given you. WSO's don't give Pilot's PAR. He has his responsibilites and I have mine.

When it comes down to it, fighters are meant to kill people and break things. We do that by putting bombs on target on time. If this was a swim suit competition, they the LGPOS would win with it's sleek lines and compact figure.

Scenario: 10 sec to Impact and you have 2 GBU-12's in flight, when the RWR goes off and you pick up the flying telephone pole skullin your way. The fighter starts defensive maneuvers. A Viper guy can do a half -as$ed defense while trying to keep the pod on the target, or do a full up defense and hope the pod keeps point tracking the target on it's own. He can't give 100% percent to both duties. If the pod doesn't point track, then they just wasted two bombs. A Mud Hen crew is still going to kill the target becuase the pilot can be 100% focused on doing the defensive maneuvering while the WSO is skulls down, manually keeping the pod on the DPI.

Hoser

[Guest rumblefish_2]

Originally posted by Hoser:

Scenario: 10 sec to Impact and you have 2 GBU-12's in flight, when the RWR goes off and you pick up the flying telephone pole skullin your way. The fighter starts defensive maneuvers. A Viper guy can do a half -as$ed defense while trying to keep the pod on the target, or do a full up defense and hope the pod keeps point tracking the target on it's own. He can't give 100% percent to both duties. If the pod doesn't point track, then they just wasted two bombs. A Mud Hen crew is still going to kill the target becuase the pilot can be 100% focused on doing the defensive maneuvering while the WSO is skulls down, manually keeping the pod on the DPI.

Hoser

[Guest SnakeT38]

Originally posted by LawnDart Driver:

I picked the Viper for 2 reasons: Dual role, and Single-Seat. Maybe it's just me, but I learn a thousand times better, and have much greater SA when I'm single-seat, than when I've got to waste brain-bytes trying to hear and digest what the A@#h@*E in Back has to say. Yes, I know they are just trying to help or to instruct, but I can learn more by seeing it once on my own, than with anyone giving me a PAR in my pit.

I'm the damned pilot, and the jet is an extension of me right? So get the f$&k out and let me drive.

Now I may be still in the B-Course, so whine away arguing with me about all the above, but I know how I feel, and thats what the original question was anyways right?

The Viper may be single-engine, but fighter pilots were meant to be Single-Seat, Single-Tail, and Single-Engine.

In my humble opinion...

Not to argue the point of picking a Viper over a C model in todays "war environment", but if someone EVER offers a 2 engine airplane that has one seat and drops bombs, I would consider it,

sucks when you are over "Indian country" and the one motor "blows" or a gomer "blows" it for you.

Knew more than a few that "limped" back with 50%

engines operating.

[Hacker]

Originally posted by rumblefish_2:

I can just hear the comm: "Goose, where is that missile? Can you see it?" "No! I must ensure this GBU-12 hits the DMPI, forget about our pink bodies...s#@%! You masked my pod!" "Umm, which one of us is supposed to chaff?" This situation may happen once in a fighter pilot's lifetime if he/she's lucky enough to see that much action.

I've been in just such a situation, threat reacting off a SAM while in the terminal phase of guiding in an LGB. Happened in OIF, April 03. Be happy to show you the video some time...of the target getting shacked.

BTW, your comm example is yet another indication of your ignorance on the issue. Anything you've experienced with two pilots in the airplane *does not* parallel what it is like to fly with a WSO. Totally different ballgame that is simultaneously the F-15E's biggest strength *and* its Achilles Heel.

[Toro]

What I find most amusing about the whole two seat argument is that you will rarely/never hear a Strike Eagle driver tell you that having a pitter is a bad thing - it's always from the single seat guys who have never been there or done that. We feel this way due to a good deal of CRM and the fact that each of us knows our roles and responsibilities. He doesn't tell me how or where to fly my jet and I don't tell him how to employ A/G weapons.

Originally posted by Crazy Joe:

Every single night Hogs and Vipers are flying low without Mama in the back seat helping them.

And how often do you employ LGBs at night low altitude?

Originally posted by Crazy Joe:

Lt Col WSO Squadron Commander in my back seat, suck.

Again, you have no idea how the CRM of a Strike Eagle works. That's like saying that if you have a LTC as your wingman you're going to let him tell you what to do. Wrong - period, dot. You are the pilot, you run the show. An 0-5 WSO in your backseat recommending a course of action is no different than your wingman recommending a course of action. You can either listen to him or tell him to pound sand.

Originally posted by rumblefish_2:

I know that during their trip to Iraq this summer, my bros from Tulsa dropped more times than the Strike Pigs just previously deployed.

First off, that's timing. I got to the desert five months after 'Shock and Awe' and in three months not one piece of metal was dropped by any aircraft in the AOR. Two months after I left, the bombs were flying again.

Second - JDAM? All the Generals have a huge hard-on for JDAM and will therefore hand off their 'priority' DMPIs to the Vipers that can drop it. Currently, not all Strike Eagles have the avionics suite to employ JDAM.

Originally posted by LawnDartDriver:

I learn a thousand times better, and have much greater SA when I'm single-seat, than when I've got to waste brain-bytes trying to hear and digest what the A@#h@*E in Back has to say.

You're not talking tactical emplyment, you're talking FTU. Apparently an instructor in the backseat isn't a completely bad thing or you wouldn't have D models. Again, you don't know what happens in the FTU. A good IWSO won't be 'yapping' in your backseat. He'll give you one or two directive bits of comm to fix a problem real-time. Absolutely no different than a flight lead who can analyze bad BFM in the air and tell you to reset your lift vector or tighten down.

[Login Name]

Originally posted by cb03t:

what was/is the reason for you choosing the fighter you did?

i'll probably get people b*tching at this post, but since nobody has mentioned it yet, the needs of the air force chose for them....unless they're guard/reserve.

[Flare]

Originally posted by Hacker:

....what it is like to fly with a WSO....simultaneously the F-15E's biggest strength *and* its Achilles Heel.

Hacker

I'm curious to know what you think the Achilles Heel is?

[Guest f16wolf]

I talked to four Eagle Drivers prior to choosing the Viper and all four of them said the same thing. They all loved flying the Eagle, but they didn't want to go back to the Eagle community. What does that tell you?