Depth perception issues

[Whitman]

I CAN verify that it is not 1 or 5. When I was practicing the test at the clinic I asked the tech if any of them were 1 or 5 and she said no. I told her what I heard about the theory behind it and she thougtht it was interesting. What is the Navy version C-17?

[Gravedigger]

Wnanna- The Navy version of the DP test was a big computer with 6 sections of three lines of dots. These sections are lettered A-F. You need to get to D to pass.(which I did) The DoDMERB folks said that they didn't understand the results, so now I am on to my 5th test for DP.

CrewDawg1- The "Magic Eye Method" is just a term for the 3-D picture method. If you apply the same stereo vision principles to the DP test, you'll pass. Search for "Magic Eye" on Google and practice thoe images.

[Guest Slick1020]

If you ever have problems with the Air Force depth perception test go to www.magiceye.com. I'm at UPT and I remember for my FC1 the lady said to make sure I continue to practice with the 3-D images at magiceye.com. I didn't of course until I had to take another physical here at UPT. So two days before I practiced mainly with the "FLOATING IMAGES" on the website and I aced that portion of my physical exam. Those rings on the Air Force test popped right out with no problems. Also, someone said once you get to UPT almost everything is waiverable. They were right from what I was told today during my physical.

[Guest jriggoMOANG]

I have always had trouble 'seeing' these magiceye images. I have tried what the magic eye website says and have some, but very limited success. Can anyone give me some pointers that will help me see them? I have been told in the past that my mind is to analytical and gets in the way of me seeing these. Again any help would be wonderful.

[Guest F-15-Eagle]

When you look "through" the picture, you have to keep focus. Imagine what is on the other side of the paper, just like the paper wasn't even there. When you start moving the image away, or you move away if you're doing it on the computer, keep that focus until you are about 14-20 inches away. By now, you should just be seing a blur. Slowly start relaxing your eyes, but don't try to focus on the image. By now, you should see some sort of depth in the image. Now you can try to see the 3-D picture. Do not try to see the 2-D picture, everything will go flay again. Once you focus on the 3-D form, you can look around it, back up more to see a greater depth effect, and even blink. It takes a couple tries if you haven't done it in awhile, or at all, but it comes easier. If looking through the picture doesn't work, then do what my dad does...he crosses his eyes and then backs the image away.

[Guest Slick1020]

That's the thing J.R. When you first start looking at the 3-D images they won't look like what they really are at first. I print the images out and look at them that way in color or black and white. But since the Air Force test is black and white that is what I use mainly. Once you see the image or a portion of it just keep staring at it. Then play with it. I mean you should get to the point where you can move your eyes a little and the pic won't go away. (Not all the time.) But like F-15 said you must "see through" the pic. That is how the Air Force depth perception test is like. Focus on looking at the depth or the background of the image. If your eyes can see the "depth" in the 3-D image I promise you the Air Force test will be a piece of cake. Don't beleive what everyone tells you. I had an Air Force depth perecption test where one of the circles actually was #5 after I was told by sources it could never be circles 1 or 5. After practicing then taking the test I saw the circle pop out and all of my responses were correct and the lady said bravo! That's in a rare case but almost all the answers is either circles 2,3, or 4. Relax and your eyes will do the work for you I promise you. Key: "Look through or beyond the photo or rings"

[ 08. July 2005, 15:21: Message edited by: Slick1020 ]

[Guest Oface]

This juicy piece of intel came directly from a tech at Brooks...(I was there recently and I had PRK, it went very well) Anyway, she told me to look into the little box and scan the bottom of the circles, in the line you are viewing, back and forth, repeatedly. If the raised circle does not jump off of the sheet, sit back close your eyes, then plug your head back in and scan again. Keep your eyes moving and only concentrate on the bottom of the little circles. I was surprised at how well it worked. And for all of you worrying and wondering about PRK and MFS, have faith, I was in your shoes. It really was not as bad as I thought, the staff was great, and the extra day of torture us PRK people get to spend there was remarkably gentle. Good luck fellas...

[Guest Berto05]

I know that the Air Force has vision standards in order to get into UPT and that once you have your wings that standard goes down. Is this the same for depth perception? I had a waiver for depth perception prior to going to UPT. Now that I have graduated my waiver has expired and I have to go back to Brooks for another check-up. I just wanted to know if anyone out there has any advice or knowledge of what may happen.

[Guest doctidy]

We've trained you, we've "bought" you the way you are. You are in a study group at Brooks to follow how you do w/ the depth perception problem. I'd lose my job if I took your waiver away.

Enjoy San Antonio...have a margarita and a taco!

[Guest Alephzayin]

I just got back from MEPS where I MISERABLY failed the depth perception test. (Doing the dang circle test, I couldn't even see the example slides.) Other than that I came out dang near perfect on eyesight. Can you tell me if this is a complete show-stopper for the FC1A? My ultimate goal is to go into the Reserves as a C-130 Navigator.

I've tried to research this, but I couldn't understand the 48-123 too well. I also tried to search this question on baseops.net, but couldn't find it. Thank you for your advice and input!

[scawtiedog]

Had the same problem on my initial FC1, example slides looked exactly the same all the way across. Went to a civi doc and got some glasses (also found out I was 20/25) then went back and re-tested (different tests, more in-depth and easier in my opinion) and passed fine. So I would go see a doc and see if they can correct it for you, then go back and demand a re-test (don't take no for an answer). I was told by 3 different tech's that I couldn't re-test and they were going to DQ me, til I finally talked to a Flt Doc who allowed me to go back and test again (passed no problem). So just remember, if you don't get the answer you want the first time, ask again, and keep asking til someone gives you another chance.

[Guest Alephzayin]

That's something I'm going to talk to the flight docs about on Monday. First off, as a true Nav (working with maps/radar), is dept perception really all that important? Second, is there any sort of correction I can do to correct the depth perception? Third, what is the waiver board like?

As it stands, I think I'm going to put in two packages - one for Reserves as rated... the other for active duty non-rated. One is a very good chance but will need a waiver, the other is a 10% chance, but no board needed. *shrug* Both boards meet around the same time.

[scawtiedog]

Can't answer the nav question (is depth perception all that important) since I'm not a nav, I'll leave it for someone else. As far as correcting it goes, have you ever had any other depth perception tests before? I think one of the biggest problems is that stupid circle test. I've heard a lot of people have trouble with it, although they have no depth perception problems (based on other tests). I would talk to a civilian doc and see if they can give you some tests and try correcting with glasses (worked for me!). Also try those Magic Eye books and see if you can do them (I can never do them, but people have told me they help). Then when you get your re-test, they should run you through some different tests that were easier to figure out than some circles (had all sorts of shapes, etc.). Be prepared to stay an extra day at Brooks for more testing on it too (I had to, and then found out after I was done that I didn't need to). I've learned to use the circle test now, although it takes my eyes some time to adjust and see it. Just don't let them rush you, there's no time limit.

As far as the waiver board goes, mine was pretty much automatic. After my Brooks testing, they submitted all the paperwork and that was the last I heard of it until a year later when it was due for renewal. After it's submitted, just keep checking in with your clinic on the status of it.

Good luck and don't give up. You can always get what you want, it's just a matter of how hard you're willing to fight for it.

[ 27. August 2006, 09:11: Message edited by: scawtiedog ]

[Guest doctidy]

1 - Is depth perception important?

-- Standards are built in coordination w/ the USAF Navs...the medics don't make them up w/o the Navs saying, "you are right, we need that."

-- When someone is accepted to be a NAV, they could end up being a C-130 Nav or a F-15 WSO. That means clearing wingtips while taxiing, backing up when the pilot goes to the boom for gas, etc. Even Flight Docs are expected to have this standard.

2 - Your question about the circles is: "Is it a good test of someone's depth perception?" I assure you it is and has been scientifically validated. I would ask scawtiedog what other "tests" do you know people have taken that prove they have no depth perception problem? Maybe they anecdotally have said they never crash into things in their car...but that isn't a test.

3 - Agree with ensuring you don't need glasses. That seems to be the #1 reversible problem people have with depth perception.

[scawtiedog]

Rage,

The other "tests" I was referring to that verified depth perception were the expanded tests I had to do on my re-take. Didn't mean to give the illusion that they could pass some non-AF-verified tests. Just meant they had difficulty with the standard circle test, but could pass some other AF approved tests (like I had to do initially).

[pbar]

They do give out waivers for depth perception. I was given one when I was accepted for UNT. My poor depth perception (from suppresion) wasn't an issue for me doing low-levels or landing a T-34 in Primary at Pensacola. I ended up with a B-1 and since we don't really have a window in the back, it hasn't been a problem operationally either. If you get one, make sure you know you have it. I didn't even know I had one and spent two months at P-cola waiting for one after I failed a depth perception test there. It had been in my records the whole time but the clowns there didn't notice it.

PBAR

[Guest zippersuitedsungod]

I was wondering how many guesses (chances) you are allowed on the OVT test. When I took mine, I was allowed up to 3 guesses per line, but was told by a little bird that I should not have been. If you really are allowed 3 guesses, and the answer is never 1 or 5, then how can anyone fail this thing? I've struggled every time I took it, but if this info is true, I'm never gonna worry about again.

[Guest P27:17]

There are no "numbers of guesses"...you will be coached through the demonstration plate, coached through group A, and then (if you say you understand) the actual test will begin. If you fail any of the circles in group B, you will be given the instructions one more time (with the examples). If you fail any circle after that in Group B or C, you will be marked as "Fails B/C"...and sent for more definitive depth perception testing. It's irresponsible to post "the answer is never 1 or 5"...you could be setting someone up for failure.

[brabus]

It's irresponsible to post "the answer is never 1 or 5"...you could be setting someone up for failure.

Isn't that just a given though...since you need a reference point on either side for your eyes to "see" the depth difference? Even knowing that, I still took a good look at 1-5. Everyone should, but it still makes sense that it wouldn't be 1 or 5 (no reference on both sides), right?

[Guest P27:17]

You might be correct...but as a medic there are some reasons I think it hurts someone...

- The tests are a screening test and not definitive. Often folks who "fail" the OVT do fine on the other tests (most of the time they just need a little refractive power and they're fine).

- This next issue is more of an integrity thing and I won't challenge any one's integrity here...If you have poor depth perception and know it and then fudge the OVT and get by with it...so be it...I just hope it doesn't manifest itself at the wrong time/place.

[ucf_motorcycle]

I'm not a medical expert by any means. But in my opinion there is something screwy with that test and many people who have no problems with their eyesight have/had problems with that test including myself.

Knowing that its not the 1st or last circle helped me actually see which circle was standing out. Previously I would stare at the first one and I could have sworn that was the one sticking out.

I think that depth perception is not something to take lax as a pilot. However I think the circle test must be flawed. The only proof I have is that I failed it the first time, and I landed several planes without incident. I can also park a car, ride a motorcycle, and I can tell which objects are further or closer by looking at them. All things that would be not possible if I didn't have depth perception.

The circle test as I understand it is a 1 dimensional test which tricks your eyes into thinking its a 3d image. I think that some peoples eyes are more easily tricked than others by the illusion. I don't think that this should prove whether you have depth perception or not.

Show me several real objects (balls, cups, toy planes etc.) lined up at a distance and ask me which one is closer or further, thats a test no one can argue with.

The only way I passed the depth perception test is by training my eyes to accept the 3d illusions by looking at those magic eye images. I always look through the magic eye book before I have to take the depth test.

[Whitman]

I'm far from a doctor but did a little research on this b/c I also suck at the test and barely passed.

People can land airplanes, and play sports with defective depth perception because of visual cues. When in the box (sts) looking at circles, it eliminates the ability to use external reference points and tests to see if you can see the finest difference measured in arc seconds. The fact is, about 10% of males have lazy eye or slight cross or imbalance (stratibus, ambloypia, heterophia, etc) and like P27 said, it's a red flag nothing more, nothing less. They send you through a full up dp workup that is much easier to pass and more extensive if you fail the circles test. Now to be honest I dont agree with the circles test. When in your flying career will you be forced to perceive depth with no other visual cues?

[Guest viperfixr]

I just started my initial FC1 and failed the depth perception. The test I took had A,B,C,D,E,F sections. Each section has 5 columns and 3 rows of circles and one circle in each row is supposed to stand out "so I'm told." I don't know the difference between the two tests (VTA/OVT)but I was told I failed the VTA. I had PRK at Wright-Patt one year ago and currently have 20/15 vision so I've read the refraction error might be messing me up. I've also gone to magiceyes.com looking for ways to train my eyes to see in 3d. If I retake this test and fail again under correction what is the next step? I've heard there is another battery of tests that most people find easier and pass. Is this an option or is it up to my sponsor unit?

[ 03. December 2006, 22:59: Message edited by: Viperfixr ]

[Guest P27:17]

VTA-DP and Optec 2000 (OVT) are basically synonymous...I'd ask what the local flight surgeon he/she is going to do before doing the "magiceyes"...the normal course of action is listed below. It is not uncommon for folks to fail the OVT and be cleared by the follow-up evals. Of those that are DQ'd, many receive waivers for depth perception so not all is lost. Check with the FSO and see what they are going to do.

A4.12. Depth Perception/Stereopsis.

A4.12.1. Initial Flying Class I, IA, II, and III. All will be tested. Failure of either of the following

screening depth perception tests: the Vision Test Apparatus (VTA-DP), or its newer replacement, the

Optec Vision Tester (OVT) is disqualifying for Inflight Refueler Applicants, Combat Controller

Applicants, and any other aircrew required to perform scanner duties (as defined in the Note accompanying

A4.9.2.), or defined by the MAJCOM and career field manager as performing duties requiring

normal depth perception. Those FC III personnel who fail depth perception testing, and are not

required to possess normal depth perception for the performance of their duties, may receive a MAJCOM

waiver for depth perception.

A4.12.1.1. Failure without optical correction (unless the candidate is emmetropic) must be

retested with correction in place, regardless of level of uncorrected visual acuity. Failure with

best-corrected visual acuity is disqualifying, but may be considered for waiver only after completion

of a local preliminary motility evaluation by an ophthalmologist or optometrist, and review by

both AETC and the ACS.

A4.12.1.1.1. A locally performed macular examination and the subsequent preliminary motility

evaluation must include all of the following:

A4.12.1.1.1.1. Ductions, versions, cover test and alternate cover test in primary and 6 cardinal

positions of gaze.

A4.12.1.1.1.2. AO Vectograph Stereopsis Test at 6 meters (4 line version).

A4.12.1.1.1.3. AO Suppression Test at 6 meters.

A4.12.1.1.1.4. Randot or Titmus Stereopsis Test.

A4.12.1.1.1.5. Red Lens Test.

AFI48-123V3 5 JUNE 2006 47

A4.12.1.1.1.6. 4 Diopter Base out Prism Test at 6 meters.

NOTE: These tests are designed to identify and characterize motility/alignment disorders, especially

microtropias and monofixation syndrome. The results of these tests done locally are considered to be preliminary,

but will be used by waiver authorities to determine whether a candidate should be permanently

disqualified without any waiver consideration, to identify if there are easily correctable causes (i.e., spectacles),

and to determine whether further evaluation is required. These cases will be reviewed by HQ

AETC/SGPS and the ACS.

Good luck

[ 04. December 2006, 11:32: Message edited by: P27:17 ]

[Guest viperfixr]

P27 Thanks for the info, it lifted my spirits. I now know that there are other options than just passing the VTA but it seems to me that if I can just pass it this whole process becomes a lot less complicated.

Saturday I took the VTA at my Guard unit on a guard drill weekend and everything was pretty rushed. Today I took a civilian TITMUS DP exam (quickly) and saw them all except #7 and #8 out of 9. But when I took the VTA I did not see any, not even the ones the tech told me. I've read there might be a possibility the VTA machine was set up wrong by the tech. Could that really be an issue? I have to retake the VTA tomorrow with correction in place for my slight farsightedness 20/15. I figure if I got 7 of 9 correct on the TITMUS (uncorrected) I should have AT LEAST been able to see the examples (uncorrected)when the tech told me what they were. I've read stories about rated pilots asking to reboot the machine up to four times before they saw the circles stand out. I've never had any issue with depth perception before and now all of a sudden I can't even see ONE circle stand out. Somethings not right.