Spine/spinal issues and waivers

[Guest mustfly]

I am guard so things may be a bit different, however, I herniated L-3, L-4 & L-5. I had the diskectomy on L5 S-1. A year later I was selected for a UPT slot and applied for the required waiver. With proper documentation and a glowing report on my recovery by THE DOCTOR WHO PERFORMED MY SURGERY, I received the waiver with no problem. The dude wasn't going to say he did anything other than a great job, which by the way, he did. I have to have my waiver reviewed every 3 years but the requirement will remain the same for its approval as it was with the initial waiver. Did you recover full range of motion? Are you Asymptomatic? Do you require/ must you remain on medications to manage pain? I'm not endorsing lying here at all, but with any back surgery you will have pain from time to time.......is it debilitating and do you think you can sit in the seat for hours at a time? If so, keep the occasional minor ache to yourself. Good luck dude.

[Guest mustfly]

I already had my waiver approved prior to Brooks. They never asked and didn't care. They have the set tests they perform on everyone and that is it. If your vision is good and your heart is good then Brooks won't care about your back.

[Guest Woods]

I am just wondering if anyone out there knows if spondylitus (A Cracked Vertebra) is a DQ for flight training. It is not "Spondylosis" a crooked spine, but a cracked vertebra that I was diagnosed with when I was 13 and it has never bothered me. My recruiter does not know, and doesn't seem to be to eager to find anything out.

[Guest P27:17]

I am just wondering if anyone out there knows if spondylitus (A Cracked Vertebra) is a DQ for flight training. It is not "Spondylosis" a crooked spine, but a cracked vertebra that I was diagnosed with when I was 13 and it has never bothered me. My recruiter does not know, and doesn't seem to be to eager to find anything out.

From my doc...

"The term does not appear to be used in its usual way in this email.

First spondylitus is misspelled and I believe that the person is

referring to spondylitis, however spondylitis is not a spinal fracture.

Usually if someone is referring to a spinal fracture they will call it a

spinal fracture. Spondylitis usually refers to ankylosing spondylitis

which is a form of arthritis which usually affects the spine and/or the

sacroiliac joints. Ankylosing spondylitis is disqualifying and would

require a waiver which I would not support. Ankylosing spondylitis is

often progressive and the implication of an ejection for someone with

ankylosing spondylitis is not clear but has the potential to be a

problem.

For this person the first thing to do is more clearly define the

problem. If it is ankylosing spondylitis although there is no specific

guidance I would not support this person proceeding to pilot training.

If it is an old fracture of the spine this person should be considered

for pilot training and proceed with application."

[Guest Woods]

Thank you very much for finding that out. I have an old spine fracture. I think there were so many terms thrown around when I was 13 that I never had it right. It never bothered me since then, and I never had a reason to look it up or care about it until now.

Once again, thank you.

[Guest TheRhino]

I'm looking for a Flight Doc's opinion on my situation.

I've had sore back issues most of my 17 year career after a car accident in the eary 90's while TDY. A few months ago, my back was getting sore everytime i sat for for a long period of time and seemed to get worse day by day. During a flight, I noticed a burning feeling in my right buttock along with the lower back pain. The next day I woke up to the worst pain i've ever felt in my life. My lower back and right leg where killing me. Went to the Flight Doc and was refered downtown for an MRI. It came back as a ruptured disk in the L5, S1 area. The disc was pushing into the Sciatic Nerve, causing intense pain. After a few days, the pain turned into complete numbness on my right buttock, back of the left leg, the heel, and my smallest 2 toes. This included no muscle movement of my 2 toes and limited movement of my ankle.

After a month of traction with physical therapy, I got no improvment. I saw the Chiropractor today, and he wants to try some manipulations. He said it could help, make it worse, or have no effect. Physical Therapy wants to increase the load on the traction and keep that going 3 times a week. The Flight Doc wants to "just wait and see" and i'm anxious to get flying again. Right now I have no pain, but numbness in the leg. I walk with a severe limp and can barley run. Other than that i feel great. Any suggestions on the course of action i should pursue?

[Guest Benko]

I walk with a severe limp and can barley run. Other than that i feel great. Any suggestions on the course of action i should pursue?

It seems as though you already got a Flight doc's opinion when you saw one and he/she got the MRI and PT started. I would recommend you follow the flight doc's wait and see strategy. I would not worry so much about flying. Sooner or later everyone will have to stop flying. Right now you are walking with a limp keep on pressing with flying and you may be using a wheelchair very soon.

Take a rest, do the PT, start getting your VA stuff straight, best wishes for your speedy recovery...at least they know what is causing it.

[Guest Monte]

Benko is right. Listen to the flight doc. If you add g-stress to a pinched central nerve you could end up in a wheel chair for a while waiting for your nerve to repair itself. Be happy that it was a peripheral nerve that got pinched, not a central one....those ones don't regenerate......

Take it easy and don't do anything to make it worse!

[Guest AltazanSW]

I've been fighting a herniated L5-S1 since February. It took about 5 months of PT to even get me to the point I could sit without pain. I'd have to agree with the Flight Doc and Benko. My doc told me to expect a 1 to 2 year recovery period. Have they tried anti-inflamatory meds or steroid injections into the disc?

[WeMeantWell]

Hi there, I am an AF heavy driver, with an assignment to fly ejection seat acft in the near future.

I am looking for some case studies to help out my local Flt Doc submit a waiver request:

I had a ruptured cervical disk C5/6 (severe stenosis, with mild cord flattening Nov 07), that has since resorbed/granulated, albeit slightly touching the cord still. I have been Asymptomatic since 6 weeks after (late Dec 07) with no surgery, and absolutely no pain since then(woo hoo!). Every flt doc I speak with seems to have a different opinion on this. I just PCSed and the current one does not know a whole lot about the waiver process and said it would take 2-3 months to even submit. I currently have a Class IIB (non-ejection seat waiver, initially granted for 2 years) and requested a Class II in June, after a MRI showed resorbtion and no signal loss. AFMOA told me to wait until the 1 year point (which is about now). The fltdoc at my last base, said he saw some UPT instructors get this kind of waiver.

So I guess I am looking to find if there are any case studies for a cervical disk herniation, with a class II waiver; even any advice on what to put on and not put on the waiver request... I checked out the Navy waiver guide and it seems a little less strigent with the cervical herniation. Maybe if there are some Navy pilot precedents.

Lastly-is it possible to hire out a civialian doc or company to review my case, MRI(s), or in case of a waiver denial, make an appeal... and would that help?

thanks for all the help in advance.

[Guest PBruton]

I am a Cadet who is going to commission this December and I received an ENJJPT slot but I just got my Brooks results back which told me I had to get my back checked for scoliosis and it came out that I had 31 degrees of curvature at T3 and 29 degrees at T8 (in the thoracic area).

I heard that the the deal is for scoliosis in the thoracic are is:

<25 degrees = no waiver needed

25<30 = waiver needed, can only fly non-ejection seat aircraft

>30 = waiver is unlikely for any aircraft

Is this true? Do I still have a shot at going to ENJJPT? Is there any way to help my case...I've been told to do yoga, stretch, pull-ups, hang from a pull-up bar, swimming, etc. I am also seeing a chiropractor but I doubt I will be able to get it under 25 degrees.

Any help on the topic would be greatly appreciated since I have to send my results back to brooks very soon in order to commission on time.

Thanks and wish me luck

My Blog:

https://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/~townend/

[brabus]

25<30 = waiver needed, can only fly non-ejection seat aircraft

What about the fact the T-6 has an ejection seat? How can they send you through UPT in an ejection seat aircraft, but then say you can't fly ejection seat aircraft for an assignment. That doesn't add up. Anyways, sorry I have nothing really to contribute. I've also heard of the hanging from a bar, stretching, etc. Try all that and find a good chiro; that's probably all you can do right now. Good luck man.

[WeMeantWell]

Waiver would be possible only for post-UPT. There are a lot of candidates that have DQ conditions that would allow them to fly non-ejection seat acft after UPT; however a waiver of that type, would typically not be possible before UPT (i.e. they have no $$ invested in you yet, not worth their risk). I am in a similar situation, however I am hoping having wings will help me through... unfortunately, a good portion of the decision for yours and mine will come down to #s, the AF revolves around #s; if they need pilots-> the waivers get approved, if they don't need pilots->requirements become more restrictive...

There is an AF guide to waivers (just google for it) and Brooks used to post a website on historical data concerning waiver requests and approvals (broken down into categories, like "scoliosis") If anyone knows if this data still exists somewhere that would be very useful...

Find a civilian doctor that understands the situation and might be able to word your condition correctly based on the waiver guide.

[Guest scifi_taoist]

I have a question on this subject as well. I am currently trying to apply for OTS for a pilot slot. I've always been pretty healthy and active and have no other health problems. About 3 months ago I was hit by a car while rollerblading. I ended up with a bruised sciatic nerve and a bulging disc (maybe herniated disc?). It has been causing me problems right now. I have been seeing a physical therapist and doctor to work on addressing the problems. They have suggested a treatment using epidural anti-inflammatory shots and non-surgical decompression of the spine using the DRX9000 machine.

My specific questions are these:

Is having a disc herniation at all a disqualification for applying?

If it heals and I have no problems after the non-surgical treatment can I apply still? Will I need a waiver?

How long would I have to wait from when I start feeling better to when I can apply?

Thank you for any help you can give. The doctors seem hopeful that I should heal completely, but I guess you never know for sure until I happens.

[WeMeantWell]

Thank you for any help you can give. The doctors seem hopeful that I should heal completely, but I guess you never know for sure until I happens.

I will be the first to tell you, heal yourself first! That is the most imporant thing now and for always, no job, career, hobby, etc is worth sacrificing your health. Second, do not apply while you still have symptoms, that is an easy 'no' for the flight docs, and actually, you would not want to fly high performance aircraft with any sort of back symptoms, it hurts, and could make things worse. Find out what you actual condition is, there is a difference between a bulge and a herniation. read through the archives here:

https://www.baseops.net/archive/archivemedical.html

and it should help you figure it out, do not let the it perusade you against applying or flying if that is what you want to do... sometimes there are brick walls to see how bad you want it! For every sob story of the AF would not let me in, there are plenty of, I can't believe they let me in stories.

[Guest tmeak]

I just recently went in for an L5-S1 Facet fusion using the allograft method (bone dowels). It turned into a L4-L5, L5-S1 Fusion. I have heard rumors of singal level waivers but am now worried about second level. I have also heard a rumor that waivers for those who have met thier gates are harder to come by? I am a Slick 130 guy with 15 years of flying.

Any info would be awesome!

In the Dark,

TMEAK

Where did you "read" it was waiverable for IFC 1?

The WAIVER GUIDE

Updated: 03/04 says the following...

Level of Disc Herniation Flying

Class Waiver Issued

Waiver Authority Waiting Period Post Treatment Required Studies

Cervical/thoracic/lumbar FC I/IA

No Waiver

N/A

N/A

There are waivers for rated (FC II)and FC III folks...not IFC 1/1A.

Is it possible (historically) for a "dog or cat" waiver to exist? Sure...although unlikely. There might also be an ETP or two but the general rule is no waiver for IFC 1 for spinal fusion.

[WeMeantWell]

I just recently went in for an L5-S1 Facet fusion using the allograft method (bone dowels). It turned into a L4-L5, L5-S1 Fusion. I have heard rumors of singal level waivers but am now worried about second level. I have also heard a rumor that waivers for those who have met thier gates are harder to come by? I am a

You are going to be better off than me, since you are lower down the back, check out the waiver guide for the specifics on the fusion. The FSO I spoke with basically laid it out to me like this: You have to be asymptomatic, if you have recurring problems/pain, wont even conside you for a waiver. I am not saying to "not seek help", but in the words of my neurosurgeon who recommended I not have surgery "If you can deal with the pain, deal with the pain"... and I believe that to a point, if you have lost feeling, it will recover but not after a long period of time >1 year...Then you have to wait for some recovery, and put on a good show for the FSO. I got my waiver at 3 months, and I am now at a year waiting to remove the non-ejection seat wording from the waiver.

In your years of experience, you know better than to believe rumors ;-)

[Guest PBruton]

I am a Cadet who is going to commission this December and I received an ENJJPT slot but I just got my Brooks results back which told me I had to get my back checked for scoliosis and it came out that I had 31 degrees of curvature at T3 and 29 degrees at T8 (in the thoracic area).

I heard that the the deal is for scoliosis in the thoracic are is:

<25 degrees = no waiver needed

25<30 = waiver needed, can only fly non-ejection seat aircraft

>30 = waiver is unlikely for any aircraft

Is this true? Do I still have a shot at going to ENJJPT? Is there any way to help my case...I've been told to do yoga, stretch, pull-ups, hang from a pull-up bar, swimming, etc. I am also seeing a chiropractor but I doubt I will be able to get it under 25 degrees.

Any help on the topic would be greatly appreciated since I have to send my results back to brooks very soon in order to commission on time.

Thanks and wish me luck

My Blog:

https://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/~townend/

It has been about a month since my last x-ray (see above) and I just got another one taken today.

The doc did a quick "unofficial" measurement of the angle using the cobb method on his computer and the angle dropped from 29/31 degrees to 19 degrees! This happened in only one month!

So it seems like I will no longer need a waiver, now all i need is to get it cleared from Brooks in time to commission in December.

What I did:

Saw a chiropractor twice a week

Yoga classes

Lots of core/back strengthening exercises (pull-ups, rows, sit-ups, planks, dips, etc)

A TON of hanging from a pull-up bar!!! (bought hand wraps so my grip lasted longer)

Always sit up straight

Swimming

I also made them lay me down on a table to shoot the second x-ray instead of standing up and I made sure that I had perfect posture when they shot it so it could be stretched as straight as possible.

Hopefully this helps some other people. Let me know if you have any questions

My Blog

[WeMeantWell]

My waiver request was just denied, or better, it was approved with the comment "member is restricted from flying ejection seat aircraft" So I guess I have to try the Exception to Policy route... they seem to make that a rather ambiguous path, so we will see what happens, I guess I need to gather up all my high ranking friends to make it happen.

[Butters]

Well, the Spine thread is not where really want to be posting right now, but since I fractured my L1, I have now choice.

In an effort to stay Fit to Fight or Fit for Freedom.. not sure what the current AF catch phrase is... I have been riding my bike to work 3 days a week. Well, last Tuesday. 30 Jun, I was hit by car that swerved into the center turn lane I was in to pass a car that was making a turn into a driveway. Well, I ended up in an Ambulance with a broken back.

Docs told me it would probably be 3 months before I could return to flying. Anyone have any experience with L1 fractures? What do I need to get off DNIF as a C-17 pilot? Also, how long until I can move around without this really uncomfortable back brace and crutches.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Butters

[Herk Driver]

Well, the Spine thread is not where really want to be posting right now, but since I fractured my L1, I have now choice.

In an effort to stay Fit to Fight or Fit for Freedom.. not sure what the current AF catch phrase is... I have been riding my bike to work 3 days a week. Well, last Tuesday. 30 Jun, I was hit by car that swerved into the center turn lane I was in to pass a car that was making a turn into a driveway. Well, I ended up in an Ambulance with a broken back.

Docs told me it would probably be 3 months before I could return to flying. Anyone have any experience with L1 fractures? What do I need to get off DNIF as a C-17 pilot? Also, how long until I can move around without this really uncomfortable back brace and crutches.

Here's to your speedy recovery.

[Butters]

Here's to your speedy recovery.

Thank you, getting hit by a car is now on my list of this things that really reall suck!

[WeMeantWell]

I ruptured my disk and was in shear pain for about 6-8 weeks, Physical therapy was good, traction was even better. The pain was so bad, I wanted surgery by week 2, luckily a good nerosurgeon told me to wait about 4-6 weeks and see how I felt... I woke up one morning and I was fine, almost 1.5 years later and haven't had that level of pain again. A few weeks, here and there, of aches and such but that is normal as your spine re-adjusts to loss of the nucleus. As for flying, they told my 90 days symptom free to submit the waiver, took about 3 weeks to get approved. So from the incident to flying again, I would guess about 6 months.

My lessons learned: this sounds terrible, but, I should of waited and not seen the fltdoc... or I should of let it go with them telling me it was back spasms and "here is your 800mg of ibuprofen". What I definetly shouldn't have done was had an MRI. I was trying to fly ejection seat aircraft and the waiver you want will be a FC II waiver, "limited to non-ejection seat aircraft", which should not be difficult as long as (key words here to say to the flt doc) "you are symptom free", even if you think its aching a little, don't even bring it up. Especially do not use the words "it feels numb" or "tingly" or "can't grasp a pencil" etc....

Long story, but 5 FSOs told me to pound sand, I got my waiver denied 4 times (or "approved" for only non-ejection seat acft), and it took almost 2 years... but I finally got an unrestricted FC II waiver, with a cervical ruptured disk. With an L1 problem it should be even easier.

[Butters]

Thank you very much for the info! It has been 2 weeks and I am off the pain meds. My last visit to the Orthopedics clinic was good news. Fracture healing nicely. I will definitely use the "symptom free" quote. Also I never had any tingling or pain shooting down the leg, which is nice.

[Bayou_Eagle_Driver]

Not a waiver related question, but didn't want to start a new thread:

I had a discectomy a few months ago, and am waiting on a waiver to start flying again (UPT). While searching through various AFIs, regs, and various PDF documents I could find on the subject, I remember reading something about a USAF approved lumbar support for G-Suits, that can be added through AFE. Does anyone have any information on this? I can't for the life of me remember what reg it was in, but I know I read it, and I'd like to talk to the AFE shop about getting this done - but I'd like to have a reg in hand before I do, in case they look at me with a blank stare when I go in there.

Thanks!