What is Gouge?

[Tex]

So, looking over all of the postings recently, there has been alot of talk about the tweet gouge. Everyone seems to agree that guys inbound for UPT should at least know the Boldface, but there has been alot of talk about the boldface having changed. Can it really change so much that it is nolonger worth looking at? Also what is the Boldface test like, fill in the blank, multiple guess, or is it verbatium write out every boldface? Any help would be appreciated.

[ViperStud]

Sorry about beating this dead horse but I think this topic might be a little more worthwhile than the several threads spent defending/crucifying the dudes at Columbus. It's not about GOUGE, people...

WHAT IS GOUGE?

Anyone who flies in the AF knows there are only about 43,869 pubs/regs/afis/supps that govern how you fly. If I want to figure out how to fly tac form in my Viper, I can reference the IFG, 3-3, 11-2F-16, a bunch of local supps AS A MINIMUM to figure out all the things I need to know. So long ago pilots got tired of going to brief with their instructor thinking they studied everything they needed to only to have the IP throw out questions from AFI 11-29383 Vol 3 Chapter69 IOS 4-4 (amended FCIF 06-9).

Enter gouge. Sometime shortly after we coined the phrase "think smarter not harder" someone thought it would be a great idea to consolidate info from all these sources into nice little study guides. Maybe those guides were a picture of the pattern with all airspeeds, radio calls, ground tracks, pitch and power settings, blah blah blah on one nice sheet. Maybe those guides were a list of bullet points from 11-217 that incorporates different techniques and organizes things by topics. This "gouge" just let individuals spend more study time actually memorizing than sifting through the endless stack of pubs we must live by.

Over the years gouge came to include old (and legally obtained) tests and review materials that gave trainees some idea of what evaluators like to concentrate on.

Fast forward to today. The term gouge has become overused to some extent if people think that ANYTHING that gives them or their class an edge is gouge. Gouge is study material, NOT things that you are not supposed to have. Gouge is unofficial but it has saved people a ton of time in their efforts to learn everything, as the SEFEs expect of us.

The point? Aircrew, you know everything I said already. Those not in the community (or newbies) you need to understand what is gouge and what is not. If it feels wrong it's probably cheating. You are officers (the pilots at least, but we are ALL professionals) and thats why they pay you the big bucks, to make those judgement calls. We all had to make those choices in training and I hope I made all the right ones. I'm just sick of hearing about stolen (current) EPQs (not that I'm saying that IS what happened), SELO involvement, etc and people throwing out the word "gouge" and hiding behind it.

(me falling OF my soap box)

PS comanche, I did not spell check if you want to do the liberty for me...

[Hacker]

All the Flight Commanders at Moody had a meeting yesterday with a group of AETC staffers who are "fact finding" regarding cheating for the AETC/CC and CV.

I am confident, after talking with these officers (two pilots, one JAG) that AETC has the proper perspective on the difference between gouge and cheating.

[Guest Apollo]

I think the study guides are all ok, just the direct questions for that test is a no-no.

I mean, who can get upset about flashcards for boldface?

[Guest TheBurt]

Over the years I have had inumerable instructors, at SUNT, SUPT, Survival, Little Rock, etc. beat it into my head, "never take a test you haven't seen before," with a foot stomp. I don't know any details about the Columbus guys, so I withold any comments about them. I find it very hard to believe that anyone gets through Pilot training without "gouge", a few people that responded to the gouge threads on this website took the moral high ground and said they personally never used it, and didn't want to fly with or trust anyone that did, and criticized "officership" and integrity of those who did. This isn't an integrity exercise, does it really matter how you got the answer? The point is that "you know the answer". Gouge is not cheating or a shortcut, it's to get the information into your skull, so that you can spend your valuable time working on other important things (it's the pilot way of thinking, that is why we check Notams, airfield surveys, etc, so that we avoid flying into the unknown). You cannot bluff your way through a checkride oral or flight check, you have to know the information, as mentioned earlier, it is working smarter not harder, that's the person that I want sitting next to me in the airplane!!! People that do not fly or have not flown outside of the AETC or training environment may not comprhend this. That is probably why instructors that have line experience are more apt to encourage gouge use. Real world missions require you operate in shades of gray, almost nothing is black and white. Maybe that's another reason for gouge in the training environment, to prove that you can handle operating in this gray area and work as a team to get your buds through, maybe the biggest reason is to show that you can keep the faith with your brothers. Nobody will fly with you if they think you are a rat, and every time you make a tough decision, you go back and tell management, think about that.

Let me say this, cheating is when you know that answer #5 is c, this is not gouge. Unfortunately, if you get caught in the gray area the commanders will hammer you, same as in the real world!! If what the Columbus studs had was truly gouge, I would hope their commanders will think back to their days as flyers and about all the gouge they used to get them to where they are!! If this is about somebody not hacking the program, and not keeping faith with their fellow students after they were eliminated, that is the only good thing to come out of this, that's the person that doesn't deserve to be among us.

[Guest justice12]

I'm new in all this, but let me see if I can get this straight, so it's ok, to have the questions that will be on the tests, (or study guides as you are calling them, but come on we all know that the questions will be on one of those tests) but if you have the questions and the answers, then that is cheating. I need to go to your colleges then, because I was never handed a mass question sheet or "study guides" and said that these questions, in some way shape or form will be on your tests, but you don't know which ones. I just got the thing of that you need to study these sections and know everything of that chapter kind of stuff. Plus I couldn't go online and find information on the exact classes that i'm taking. Also I don't know how many of you, especially instructors here, have taken a test that they haven't seen yet, come on let the truth come out now. I defintely need to go to your school if that is the case and get my doctorate. That would be so easy to get a 4.0. One more thought, if these tests are so important then why are they only 7.5% of a grade, while Flight Commanders ranking can make or break you and that's an opinion. That's great that AETC guys came to your bases, since they never came to CAFB and talked to anyone about the situation. And actually there were a lot of people that were waiting for them, so they could actually tell them the truth and not give the company answer. Let's think about this, you do not think that people are scared right now to actually come forward and say that it is true that cheating(or helping each other out, instructors leaving the room, or the table of knowledge) is prevalent when they see that there are people that the military might screw up their whole lives over right now. Come on let's be straight here. Hey and if anyone knows the name of the AETC people that came to your base I would love the names. I will get off my soapbox now, just trying to understand how you guys are coming to the conclusion about gouge and cheating. I"m thinking that people (ie. military)are pretty much making up their own morbid definitions, I'm not syaing that the people that are involved aren't in the wrong about what they had did or didn't do, but that is it worth screwing up their whole lives over, that this will at the end probably happen. Also is this a one mistake Air Force that we are living in? No one can actually be "rehibilitated?" I mean even some murderers/pedafiles in jail are rehibilitated and sent back out into the world. Some them go back in and others live out the remaining part of their lives in the world. ok, enough said, sorry about the long rant/raving. Just trying to find some justice in all this, if that can even happen.

[Hacker]

Originally posted by justice12:

That's great that AETC guys came to your bases, since they never came to CAFB and talked to anyone about the situation. And actually there were a lot of people that were waiting for them, so they could actually tell them the truth and not give the company answer.

Hey and if anyone knows the name of the AETC people that came to your base I would love the names.

Curious, what is your position in life at Columbus? Student, IP, Wing Commander, Janitor, Casual Student?

The reason I spoke to these particular officers -- two Majors in flight suits and a JAG officer -- was because they wanted to talk to Flight Commanders in IFF. If you are in that category, than you are right to be irritated that they did not talk to you. If you are not in that category, then there is probably a reason they did not talk to you.

They wanted to know very specific information; how does academic testing work, how do relationships with our students work, stuff like that. There actually weren't any questions posed to us regarding the difference between gouge and cheating -- that portion was one way: they transmitted and we received. The whole point was moot, anyway, since we don't have any flightline testing at IFF, anyway, but that was the topic of their visit.

Now sure which 'company answer' you're referring to, but I can assure you that out of eight fighter pilot Captains, there is not a lot of towing-the-line that happens. When it was opinion time on this subject, we definitely had a lot of 'em, and none of them were politically correct.

[Toro]

Justice 12,

I know exactly who you are and I know exactly what your relation is to this case. You of all people are the last person who can speak about this matter from an unbiased standpoint. I won't call you out 100% right here unless you choose to continue with these posts (reviving a topic that's been dead for almost two months...come on, nothing better to do?), but I will respond with the following-

Originally posted by justice12:

so it's ok, to have the questions that will be on the tests, (or study guides as you are calling them, but come on we all know that the questions will be on one of those tests) but if you have the questions and the answers, then that is cheating.

For the love of God, yes. It's called a Master Question file and they're used throughout the Air Force. We have a large bank of questions to choose from and only a certain number will be on the test.

I need to go to your colleges then <<snip>>. Plus I couldn't go online and find information on the exact classes that i'm taking.

This isn't about college tests, this is about the Air Force method of testing. They're completely different. In only your second paragraph you begin to prove how little you know about the subject at hand. And by the way, you most certainly can go on line to get information on college classes. If you want, I'll send you the links to sites that sell papers and tests.

Also I don't know how many of you, especially instructors here, have taken a test that they haven't seen yet, come on let the truth come out now.

YGBSM! Every single one of us! All of us were UPT students at some point, so this wouldn't be the case unless we cheated on every single test we've ever taken.

I defintely need to go to your school if that is the case and get my doctorate. That would be so easy to get a 4.0.

Once again, it's AF testing, not a college test.

if these tests are so important then why are they only 7.5% of a grade, while Flight Commanders ranking can make or break you and that's an opinion.

Yet again you've proven your lack of knowledge on this subject - go ask your acquaintance this question (though he's probably the one who planted it in your cranium). It's flying ability that counts above all else. And by the way, in a tie-breaker, the tests most certainly can make or break you. However, they're not as important as Flight Commander ranking because the latter is the supervisor's overall impression of you as an entire person. That is what I care about when a new guy shows up to my squadron, not whether he tests poorly.

Let's think about this, you do not think that people are scared right now to actually come forward and say that it is true that cheating(or helping each other out, instructors leaving the room, or the table of knowledge) is prevalent when they see that there are people that the military might screw up their whole lives over right now. Come on let's be straight here.

Send them to my house. I'll tell them that I'm sure it happens in parts of the Air Force.

I will get off my soapbox now, just trying to understand how you guys are coming to the conclusion about gouge and cheating.

Because most of us are Air Force officers who have 'been there' and 'done that'. You are not.

Also is this a one mistake Air Force that we are living in? No one can actually be "rehibilitated?" I mean even some murderers/pedafiles in jail are rehibilitated and sent back out into the world.

Once again, it's the military, not the real world - though I do agree it shouldn't be a one mistake Air Force.

Just trying to find some justice in all this, if that can even happen.

This is the wrong place to 'find justice,' this is a forum for discussing matters of avaiation from all sides, which is exactly what was done.

If it isn't extremely obvious from what you posted, you do not understand the workings of the Air Force on many different levels and you are extremely biased on this matter because you are indirectly involved.

[Guest ereforseroolz]

2 cents:

Air Force:

- Study gouge and don't ever talk about it

- Study boldface/ops limits till eyes bleed

- Study 2-3 events ahead of where you are. meaning don't even look at form if you haven't started academics, but if you are starting contact definitely look at advanced aero too.

- AF THEME: study study study.

Navy:

- Study gouge, warnings/notes/cautions in EP section of NATOPS

- Study checklist(for some reason navy guys like to have a checklist and not look at it)

- Study what you would do for each EP in aircraft, because you will prob do them in aircraft.

- The navy claims that its training is tougher because they dont hold your hand with a "dollar ride" (flight in beginning of block of training [ie contact / instruments / form] where you are not expected to know much. however i have found them much more willing to cut slack and teach even towards the end of a block.

- Navy Theme: Gouge, Gouge, Gouge

As far as studying before UPT... sure, but I wouldn't go nuts. Because you can never be sure if what you are studying mtches what the squadron wants you to know. Also, it is easy to get ahead of yourself. Example,hhhmmm you may think you've studied... oh i don't know... systems knowledge enough so when you hit the flight line(this is a completely hypothetical story...) you spend more time studying IFG or making popcorn because you have a false sense of security and then find yourself getting sat down because you didn't quite know exactly what that light meant...

[ 15. January 2007, 05:37: Message edited by: Toro ]

[Dubs]

Edited to add: This shouldn't be focused on that one person. The main point here is that integrity doesn't demand you throw your bro's under the bus. Lets say you're in training and someone has something that might cross the line between gouge and cheating. Do you go to them and say "Hey man, you should get rid of that. It is beyond gouge and it's not good for you to have it". Or do you instead, run to your FLT/CC and say "that dude is cheating"?

If you are the one with the questionable stuff, and the FLT/CC comes to you and asks "Do you have this?", then integrity demands that you tell the truth. But it doesn't demand that you're first reaction is to ruin somebody's career.

If I'm at a training (specifically UPT or UNT) and someone is using stuff that's somewhere between gouge and cheating, they're not my "bro" at that point. I'm being racked and stacked against this douche and I'm lookin out for #1. I'll tell the dude to cut that shit out and give him time to clean up his act, but if he doesn't... you better believe I'd go to my flt/cc. Hopefully the flt/cc would keep it at the lowest level possible and resolve the situation, but I wouldn't let that crap slide. I've seen entire classes go down due to one person cheating and no one having the balls to go to someone about it.

[magnetfreezer]

If I'm at a training (specifically UPT or UNT) and someone is using stuff that's somewhere between gouge and cheating, they're not my "bro" at that point. I'm being racked and stacked against this douche and I'm lookin out for #1. I'll tell the dude to cut that shit out and give him time to clean up his act, but if he doesn't... you better believe I'd go to my flt/cc. Hopefully the flt/cc would keep it at the lowest level possible and resolve the situation, but I wouldn't let that crap slide. I've seen entire classes go down due to one person cheating and no one having the balls to go to someone about it.

If you're talking about the UNT class this spring, there was no 'cheating' involved - combination of SQ overreaction and people not being smart about where they pulled it out (sts). You'll be racked and stacked throughout your entire career - hope you never use one of these; also, when you get to a new squadron, make sure to remind your fellow crewdogs you're "looking out for #1" in order to head off any problems they may cause.

[Dubs]

If you're talking about the UNT class this spring, there was no 'cheating' involved - combination of SQ overreaction and people not being smart about where they pulled it out (sts). You'll be racked and stacked throughout your entire career - hope you never use one of these; also, when you get to a new squadron, make sure to remind your fellow crewdogs you're "looking out for #1" in order to head off any problems they may cause.

Apparently that whole plural thing went over your head. No shit I'll be racked and stacked my whole career. MQF is not cheating... especially when you have to look through 15 million pubs to find the answers YOURSELF (hence the actually learning the information part). And good job being selective in quoting me.

[brabus]

I've seen entire classes go down due to one person cheating and no one having the balls to go to someone about it.

And I've seen some dudes get completely bent over (sts) b/c some cockslobber decided to tell on them for using gouge. If anyone tells me they never once used gouge, they're either a liar or that guy. I'm not saying you should be cool with someone trying to change grades, steal a test ahead of time from the flt/cc's computer while he left it logged in, etc. Dubs, definitely not saying you think gouge is wrong or whatever, or that you're the type who would do the aforementioned, but just saying there's a line between cheating and gouge/helping bros out...some people don't understand the good side of the line and think it's all bad. Those people are douchebags.

[Dubs]

Dubs, definitely not saying you think gouge is wrong or whatever, or that you're the type who would do the aforementioned, but just saying there's a line between cheating and gouge/helping bros out...some people don't understand the good side of the line and think it's all bad. Those people are douchebags.

I agree with that. There's gouge... and then there's questionable gouge/cheating material. If you have to question whether or not your gouge is "legal" (aka somewhere between gouge and cheating) then it's probably cheating. I've got no problem with MQF's, condensed IMC break procedures, tab data, etc... But in the training environment, if someone has a copy of a test (especially if they're hording it for themselves... not that I'm saying it should be passed out to a class), if someone has an instructor's script for a sim and study it before a sim, if someone has a checkride route already completed and gouged up before the checkride spin (talking specifically about UNT here) etc... that's crossing the line. Like I said before, I'd tell the person to knock that shit off, but if they didn't, I really don't see going to the flt/cc about it as being a douchie move. Why should that person be #1 in the class and get the best plane come drop time over someone who busted their ass to do it the legit way?

Plus, would you really want someone who cheats their way to wings to fly with you? Would you feel comfortable flying on a crew plane or in formation with someone that doesn't know the difference between trail and echelon and the ops limits associated with each? Would you want to fly with someone that could potentially violate the crew every time they go fly because they didn't know little caveat stuff not covered by gouge? I personally wouldn't want to be near someone that doesn't get into the books.

Like I said before, I don't mind gouge... I make it and use it myself. BUT, it should be a supplement to the knowledge you already have, not the basis of it.

[Fud]

On a different note, I have seen many good people (senior officers on down) get the shaft. They were all good people, but happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. Shit happens in the Air Force, and people are held accountable, and whether you agree with it or not is a non-issue. I'd love to see a 2Lt argue with an O-5/O-6 type about something miniscule in the regs. I've seen it happen, the 2Lt was right, but got shafted anyway for mouthing off and seeming cocky. Getting worked up about it does not help, and can get you into some pretty big trouble depending on who your talking to (been there, done that, never doing it again).

As far as gouge is concerned, only use it as a guide, and study all of the material in whatever class you are taking. I've seen way too many people use gouge as the only source, and they are not fully utilizing any course they are taking. I promise you, this will translate to how the do their day-to-day job, and these are the slap-dick douchebags that don't know how to do their jobs. I had a guy take the same Master's level courses as I did, and he tried to get all of my old papers off of my computer. Not only did I not help him, but he failed out because he couldn't think for himself.

[Tex]

It is interesting to see this thread pop back up after I started it way back when. Now that I have lived the gouge or cheating question Ill weigh back in.

There is a lot of information floating around out there, to include on this forum. Some of that information is correct, some of it only points you in the right direction, and there is a lot of it that is just plain wrong. I will not sit here and define cheating, I think that with the exception of a few clear cut instances there are a lot of things that walk the thin line between gouge and cheating. I believe that what most people have said, "If you have any reservations about using the info, then it probably is cheating...", is an accurate statement. Most of us are officers and we are all professionals. Make a sound judgement call. That said, for the noobies, If the info is well publicized and you can talk about it in the flight room. You are probably golden. If noone feels comfortable talking about anywhere they may be overheard you may want to think twice.

My final statement concerns the SEFE/IP gouge. I haven't been to a squadron that doesnt talk about what a SEFE/IP likes to ask. Most SEFEs/IPs incourage that conversation. I don't care if it is a training environment or OPs. Don't F a buddy(s) by holding back info.

[HeloDude]

Plus, would you really want someone who cheats their way to wings to fly with you? Would you feel comfortable flying on a crew plane or in formation with someone that doesn't know the difference between trail and echelon and the ops limits associated with each? Would you want to fly with someone that could potentially violate the crew every time they go fly because they didn't know little caveat stuff not covered by gouge? I personally wouldn't want to be near someone that doesn't get into the books.

You're obviously not that experienced. I want to fly with people who are RESOURCEFUL and who are willing to help people out when the time is needed. In no way am I condoning cheating...but in the true scheme of things, all the tests in the world aren't going to help you out if you don't know anything on your checkride. If a guy is Q-1 that means (at least should) that he's up to standards--that's the evalutor's job. How does that guy get recommended for a checkride in a training environment?--His IP's understands that the student either knows his stuff or doesn't and makes the decision to send him to the checkride or recommend more training.

So if guys somehow get a hold of stuff and share it with their buddies, then so be it--it's their ass if they get caught. Again, all the 'gouge' in the world is not going help you right then and there when you're in the aircraft on your checkride or sitting at the table with the evaluator getting a ground eval. Now someone that is resourceful, i.e. knows where to find information when and where it is necessary, now that's huge. In the past I've had an FE or two 'help me out' as young copilot during a checkride. Is that cheating? I call it being resourceful and getting a little lucky.

[brabus]

if someone has an instructor's script for a sim and study it before asim, if someone has a checkride route already completed and gouged upbefore the checkride spin

Having a copy of the exact test is cheating, but no way the above two are bad things. Instructor's script sounds a lot like the SEFE gouge papers that has the questions he asks, what EPs he likes to give, etc. There's nothing wrong with that. If someone has mission materials already done that can help me out on a checkride, damn straight I'll use them. Maybe you've just gotten the standard UPT/UNT "if it's not in an AF issued manual, it's cheating" talk, but that's a bunch of BS. In fact, when you get out of that training environment, it gets a lot better. Everyone is in the books and knows their shit (for the most part), but sometimes some study notes before hand and/or CTRL+F for some yearly thing is not a bad thing and does not mean you don't know what you need to know to safely and effectively complete the mission.

[magnetfreezer]

Having a copy of the exact test is cheating, but no way the above two are bad things. Instructor's script sounds a lot like the SEFE gouge papers that has the questions he asks, what EPs he likes to give, etc. There's nothing wrong with that. If someone has mission materials already done that can help me out on a checkride, damn straight I'll use them. Maybe you've just gotten the standard UPT/UNT "if it's not in an AF issued manual, it's cheating" talk, but that's a bunch of BS. In fact, when you get out of that training environment, it gets a lot better. Everyone is in the books and knows their shit (for the most part), but sometimes some study notes before hand and/or CTRL+F for some yearly thing is not a bad thing and does not mean you don't know what you need to know to safely and effectively complete the mission.

'2' - we have foolproof devices to see if someone really knows the stuff that was on a test (it's called a sim/airplane). Any gouge will help you getting up there (sts) and briefing a mission if you know your stuff, but if you are only following some script you got the instructor will be able to tell quickly.

[LJ Driver]

Live by it, die by it. Gouge is great until its wrong. Nothing I like more than GKing some cocky little d-bag that thinks he has it all figured out because he has what he thinks is good gouge. When I ask him to pull out the -1 and show me where xyz is, he can't find it for 20 minutes. Hey knucklehead, your gouge sucks, the -1 is the best gouge you can get.

We all used it in UPT. So what. I flew the T-37, the damn thing was built in the 1800's, people created 'study guides' for 100 years, we now call them gouge. Like I said, live by it and die by it. The source document is always right, at least that's the AF answer.

[Dubs]

Having a copy of the exact test is cheating, but no way the above two are bad things. Instructor's script sounds a lot like the SEFE gouge papers that has the questions he asks, what EPs he likes to give, etc. There's nothing wrong with that. If someone has mission materials already done that can help me out on a checkride, damn straight I'll use them.

Well, like I said in the part you strategically didn't add in your quote, I was talking specifically about UNT where your mission planning is a graded event counting towards your class ranking. You have 100 minutes (if I remember correctly) to do all of the mission planning for your checkride a day or two before you take it. In this case, yeah, if you showed up to the mission planning event with it already done... that's cheating. Outside the formal training environment your damned right it's different because you've probably flown the route you're doing your checkride on 100 times. It's nothing new and there's really nothing that you haven't seen before.

[magnetfreezer]

Well, like I said in the part you strategically didn't add in your quote, I was talking specifically about UNT where your mission planning is a graded event counting towards your class ranking. You have 100 minutes (if I remember correctly) to do all of the mission planning for your checkride a day or two before you take it. In this case, yeah, if you showed up to the mission planning event with it already done... that's cheating. Outside the formal training environment your damned right it's different because you've probably flown the route you're doing your checkride on 100 times. It's nothing new and there's really nothing that you haven't seen before.

Interesting. If there is someone sitting there grading your planning process wouldn't they notice you aren't doing any planning resulting in a fail/bad grade for the mission planning part, though?

[Hacker]

Dudes, there is absolutely no good that can come from this discussion.

If you believe in gouge, then use it. If you don't, then don't.

If you're a young guy who is trying to figure out what is right and what is wrong, then grab an IP that you like and respect and ask him personally to give you some mentorship on the subject.

One thing's for certain: nobody is going to be able to draw a clear-cut line that everyone agrees on when this is an area that there is only grayness.

[tac airlifter]

If you're a young guy who is trying to figure out what is right and what is wrong, then grab an IP that you like and respect and ask him personally to give you some mentorship on the subject.

Solid advice.

[Guest Brenda]

Hate to be all lame, but what is this gouge thing? I've figured out that AFdriver is shut down...

Thanks-