SRO (Senior Ranking Officer) at UPT

[Guest scottaxelson]

Looking for some advice here. I got picked up for UPT last board and am off to Columbus in Dec. I dont know for sure, but I will likely be the SRO of my class. I am a captain with 4.5 years of service. I am planning ahead and going down there (sts) thinking I will be the SRO. I would like any pilot to share with me some advice on the matter. Tell me what your SRO did that was good and some bad stories as well. If you were the SRO, tell me about the experience and what you did that you liked and some things you wish you would have changed. Even if its a couple of lines, I am just looking to gather all the info I can.

Also if anyone is in class 08-05 at Columbus, please IM me.

Thanks for the help!

[Bergman]

Originally posted by a nav:

Looking for some advice here. I got picked up for UPT last board and am off to Columbus in Dec. I dont know for sure, but I will likely be the SRO of my class. I am a captain with 4.5 years of service. I am planning ahead and going down there (sts) thinking I will be the SRO. I would like any pilot to share with me some advice on the matter. Tell me what your SRO did that was good and some bad stories as well. If you were the SRO, tell me about the experience and what you did that you liked and some things you wish you would have changed. Even if its a couple of lines, I am just looking to gather all the info I can.

Also if anyone is in class 08-05 at Columbus, please IM me.

Thanks for the help!

I agree that you will most likely be your class' SRO, but don't bet the farm on it. There were 4 Captains in my class. I was "lucky" enough to be the SRO with 8 years in service.

Being SRO is a very strange leadership challenge...you have responsibility for people, but no authority over them. I.E. if Lt Snuffy doesn't show up on time the flight commander will chew your ass, because he's your responsibility. But since you're only a student, you can't make Lt Snuffy do a damn thing.

IMHO, being the SRO is largely a thankless job. You make sure everyone has the schedule, any good gouge, phone lists, and other administrative crap. At least in my class, whether I appointed someone else to take the lead on something, I always found myself following up...from class patches, stickers, planning track select, planning graduation, assignment night, and the list goes on and on. I think part of that was me...I knew I was going -135s, so had no trouble spending my free time to help the class. You could get by doing less, especially if your career/assignment were on the line. I met a few jerks on staff, but overall the IPs were good and had an appreciation for the extra work it entails.

Hope that helps a little. PM or post with more questions.

[Shut up 'n color]

Gotta dig it man...at least you know early that you'll be the leader and you are getting it in your head. I managed to be CHOOSEN for the SRO duty of my current flight and didn't have time for that to set in before they started tasking me with stuff. Because it's early on in this T1 phase, it isn't too bad. When the senior class disappears and all that is left is us, they will concentrate on screwing us (through the SRO) as much as possible. I am fortunate to have a good flight who has volunteered to take care of things when they see that I'm busy. Encourage an enviornment with your flight where everyone can get together on free time, try to plan things early so they all get to know each other...otherwise your flight will break up in groups and it'll be hard to get people to enjoy spending time with those they don't get along with...which is most likely b/c they really never got a chance to know those people.

Good luck man, shrug off the bull S%^*...b/c as a captain...you'll be treated like a Cadet by 1 LTs.

[Guest paperpusher]

As a former AETC Flt/CC who handed out Flt/CC rankings and assignments...I can tell you the aircraft you desire is yours for the taking, if you do well as SRO. All of my former SRO's, with the exception of one dirtbag, all got their first or second choice on assignment night.

Sounds like some good advice offered in previous posts. Try not to alienate the young Lt's. They don't need a father/mother but they do need advice, when solicited. Stay on your toes and remember to smile often...it gives the IPs the perception that you've got it all your stuff together, plus a positive attitude.

One last thing...I've seen SRO's fired for poor performance, bad attitudes or a lack of demonstrated leadership...so be ready to step up, if required, if you're not the origninal SRO.

Good luck.

[Batman]

Don't sweat the SRO duties, especially if you're not even sure you'll be the SRO. However, if you do end up being the SRO there are advantages to having this title:

10. No Oh-dark thirty simulator times. You'll only get mid/late morning sim sessions.

9. You get to know all the IPs and Flight Commander faster.

8. No SNACKO for you. You just assign it to someone else.

7. You get first selection for who will be your Instructor Pilot.

6. The SRO gets to call the Sq/CC by his or her callsign.

5. You get your own parking spot.

4. On Friday nights all your buds buy you the drinks.

3. You'll never get "the fat one".

2. Your crew bus is always heated in the winter and cool in the summer.

1. You're only 3 bad rides away from being a WAL-MART greeter.

Batman

[Guest paperpusher]

Shut up n' Color...

I think most Flt/CCs try their level best to do right by the studs...of course personalities vary.

I saw it as my job to get the best assignenments possible for the studs...especially if they gave max effort and had good attitudes.

The Sq/CC and OG/CC keep the playing field even during their review of class standing and assignments. They ask all kinds of questions about who's getting this or that, why, what trades were made, etc.

Biggest factors to your assignment, in my opinion, are attitude and effort.

[Guest Aces-High]

My biggest advice as a 2LT just out of UPT (i.e. not much leadership experience, so take as is) would be for you to just be one of the guys. Don't think that because you are SRO you have to hold drill practice. Go party with the guys and get involved in their lives. Don't take the position too seriously. If you do you might risk being pushed to the side. Everyone in pilot training will be put under a lot of pressure. The last thing everyone needs is a pain in the ass nitpicking SRO. And for you the last thing you want is to be ostricised by the rest of the class. You need that extra gouge and study nights as much as everyone else. Salute the 1LT FAIP before the flight just like you would the squadron commander. Call him sir and don't wine about it. Don't forget to demmand obedience, but only when necessary don't go overboard. When the time comes DELEGATE the work load for assignment nights etc. Usually the SRO and any other captains etc will do most of the work, but if you've got some fighter pilot wannabes they'll typically pick up the slack because it's their nature to work hard and they want to look good for the commander's ranking. If you're married hold BBQs at your house for the entire class often this will definitely help build relationships. If not then don't be afraid to party every once in a while.

P.S. Take everyone to OLD HICKORY one night near the beginning... everyone will love you. For a large group go through what looks like the kitchen and into the very back of the building. Big tables there.

[Bergman]

Originally posted by Aces-High:

My biggest advice as a 2LT just out of UPT (i.e. not much leadership experience, so take as is)

Noted.

Don't think that because you are SRO you have to hold drill practice. Go party with the guys and get involved in their lives.

I agree.

Don't take the position too seriously.

WRONG! I don't know who your SRO was and what example he/she set for you, but you have clearly missed an imortant point here. Being the SRO is a pretty serious, and very thankless, position. If you don't think your SRO A) kept you or your buddies out of trouble, B) Helped your or your buddies' assignments, C) Helped you or your buddies' grades/mil cap/87-89 ride process then you are again sadly mistaken. At least 99% of the SROs I knew did all of those things and more. In both of my UPT squadrons I was REQUIRED to meet with the Sq/CC on a weekly basis. I talked with my Flt/CC almost daily. Lastly, while it didn't do much for me since I was ANG, being the SRO typically means a very good commanders ranking and usually pretty good assignment, in my experience.

If you do you might risk being pushed to the side. Everyone in pilot training will be put under a lot of pressure. The last thing everyone needs is a pain in the ass nitpicking SRO. And for you the last thing you want is to be ostricised by the rest of the class. You need that extra gouge and study nights as much as everyone else. Salute the 1LT FAIP before the flight just like you would the squadron commander. Call him sir and don't wine about it. Don't forget to demmand obedience, but only when necessary don't go overboard. When the time comes DELEGATE the work load for assignment nights etc. Usually the SRO and any other captains etc will do most of the work, but if you've got some fighter pilot wannabes they'll typically pick up the slack because it's their nature to work hard and they want to look good for the commander's ranking. If you're married hold BBQs at your house for the entire class often this will definitely help build relationships. If not then don't be afraid to party every once in a while.

I agree 100% with everything you said.

[Guest Aces-High]

Yea I guess it was just my experience with my SRO. My SRO in tweets may have helped out with helping the buds, but I think we had a good class and that really wasn't necessary. Second our flight commander was an incredible guy and from my perspective it was him that made sure everyone got as fair a shake as possible during track select, CAP, 88-89 rides etc. My SRO did get a good commander's ranking it's true. He ended up going to Corpus which was his first choice. My SRO in T-1s was a complete douche. His status as reservist helped him there though. He tried to find ways not to fly, just because he didn't feel like it. He ended up getting fired.

I guess what I mean by "don't take it too seriously" is don't be a Nazi. I saw plenty of SROs just go overboard with stuff that really wasn't necessary.

[Scooter14]

Originally posted by Aces-High:

I guess what I mean by "don't take it too seriously" is don't be a Nazi. I saw plenty of SROs just go overboard with stuff that really wasn't necessary.

]

On the flip side, don't make your SRO be a Nazi. I was bestowed with the honor as well. I never walked in saying "You know, I'm going to be a prick today..." but there were days where I was. If everything is all jacked up, you have to take charge.

True, you have no "authority", but you are a Captain, and they are Lieutenants. If you flip for rank, you will always win. Never forget that. It sucks to have to pull rank on your peers, but a fact is a fact. It's not just a bigger paycheck. You are in a tough position when it comes to this: you are a student, but you hold the rank. You have to lead when it is necessary.

Honestly, between being SRO and having a Marine Tweet Flt/CC, I learned more about how to lead and take care of your troops in those six months than I did in the 4 years of ROTC and 8 years of being on a crew prior to that.

[Guest drelyn8]

Being SRO was like being a chaperone at Disney world. When you get there, everyone knows the guidelines. If there is someone that doesn't follow, then they will stand out in front of everyone. I had a pretty good leadership background when I showed up at UPT. The only frustrating thing I encountered was other Captain's constantly trying to prove themselves. To be a good leader, you must be a good follower. As SRO, you FOLLOW your leadership and their rules and you hope your fellow students FOLLOW your example and do as you do.

My overall experience in the AF does not leave me impressed with the AF leadership training. The majority of LT's are soley concerned with themselves and this seems encouraged. The Army does 100% better at developing leaders, from initial training through career progression.

As I transitioned to the AF way of thinking, I had to stop worrying about the team, and worry more about myself. If not, I would have quickly been left behind.

[Champ Kind]

Originally posted by drelyn8:

My overall experience in the AF does not leave me impressed with the AF leadership training. The majority of LT's are soley concerned with themselves and this seems encouraged.

Could it maybe have something to do with the fact that most Army guys are commanding a platoon of troops approx. 6-9 weeks after commissioning (be it in Iraq or garrison) while their USAF counterparts (at least the non-shoe types) are making jalepeno corn, manning the paper shredder, or learning how to fly jets? On top of that, once said LTs are done learning to fly jets, they probably won't hold any type of leadership position until years down the road.

[Guest drelyn8]

Could it maybe have something to do with the fact that most Army guys are commanding a platoon of troops approx. 6-9 weeks after commissioning (be it in Iraq or garrison) while their USAF counterparts (at least the non-shoe types) are making jalepeno corn, manning the paper shredder, or learning how to fly jets? On top of that, once said LTs are done learning to fly jets, they probably won't hold any type of leadership position until years down the road.

I couldn't have said it better myself...

[Guest Rainman A-10]

Originally posted by joe1234:

I'm curious....how exactly is the leadership atmosphere in a crew airplane?

Ever seen cattle in a stockyard and tried to pick out which steer is the boss of the other steers while they are all milling around in he pens?

It's like that in a crew airplane...except a stockyard smells better.

[Guest Hydro130]

You funny guy, Rainman.

Well, in all fairness, I have definitely seen that to be the case sometimes. And the smell part is right on.

Joe, a crew airplane is just like any other group of military yahoos put together to go do something as a team. Someone is in charge on paper (the Aircraft Commander), and the rest of the folks have supporting roles. There may or may not exist the power struggles / conflicts / undertows / etc that are possible in any other scenario. A lot depends on how the AC chooses to run things; the textbook leadership styles all are applicable.

I ran my crew differently when when we crossed the cha-ching line than when I was out on a trash-hauling mish, and differently again when I was on a local training line or a JAATT. Sometimes, my leadership style was driven entirely by the mish, and sometimes by the crew I had that day. Most of the time, it was a mix of the two. Standard answer: It depends.

For the most part, a fighter flight lead has the same leadership challenges as a crew AC. They just don't have to deal with the fun adventures like bailing the loadmaster out of jail (again) during your 3-week single-ship TDY traversing various foreign locales :D

Your leadership capability, whether as a flight lead or as an AC, will be the yardstick that you will be measured by as you progress onwards and upwards, well, that's how it should work :rolleyes:

Cheers, Hydro

[Guest Rainman A-10]

Originally posted by Hydro130:

For the most part, a fighter flight lead has the same leadership challenges as a crew AC.

I disagree. I've got to give the herbivore guys their props.

I was just trying to be a smartass and incite a minor riot. Hydro diffused it by replying with a legit answer to the question instead of responding to my smartass comment.

Fighter flight leads have it made compared to a herbivore AC. Seriuosly.

It is easy to be a fighter flight lead when it comes to keeping everyone in line and making decisions in the air. The fighter community makes sure every new wingman knows his place. The even send them to a special school right after pilot training just so they can get the shit (and attitude) knocked out of them about being in formation, on the proper freq, exact taxi spacing, lining up properly in the arming area and 1000 other tiny little details. That's also where they learn to say things like ITTFO, "lead can I get you another beer?" and other assorted customs and courtesies.

Fighter guys are heavily indoctrinated. That makes it much easier.

I would say being a Detco or maybe a Projo on a two week fighter deployment might be similar to being a Herbivore AC, but even that is probably much easier.

BL, herbivore ACs have a ton of responsibility and they are making a bunch of very important decisions when they are hopping all over the place. I think this is especially true in the AOR, especially a few years ago at the beginning of the GWOT when everything was new and many places they had to go were a long way from mother and most were not very nice/friendly.

Oh yeah, I wasn't kidding about the smell.

Herbivore guys stink.

[Guest Hydro130]

Rainman, thanks for the props; I broad-brusheded that statement a bit to get the point across to the young guns out there who think that every fighter is an alone-and-unafraid lone wolf platform in comparison to a crew plane... A fighter flight lead has plenty of leadership challenges - unique and different from a herb AC, but there are many parallels to be found too.

Just so as not to completely hijack this thread; the takeaway here is that those leadership styles you learn about at The Zoo, ROTC, or OTS all need to be applied with appropriate discretion for different circumstances, whether that's as SRO, AC, flight lead, or CINC Popcorn Machine. But do be deliberate in your leadership style; just "winging it" and/or not being flexible isn't the right answer.

Cheers, Hydro

[Guest clouddawg]

For the SRO gig, I would say four things 1) Dont be that guy who orders all the other students around just because you are the SRO. Even though there may only be one or two pay grade differences the 1 and 2 Lts are still learning leadership from what you do, even in a minor role as SRO. 2) Get everyone involved. It will take some of the workload off you and it will make other people feel like they are a part of the class. 3) Make sure cliques do not develope. We had some in my class and not everyone shared equally in the helpful hints from senior classes. 4) If you have folks that have more experience, we had some 9 and 10 year former enlisted people, ask them to help put things in perspective. So when an Lt gets pissed off that he has to pay dues or sit snack go they might have some helpful words to tell the snotty fellow Lt how to shut up and color.

[Scooter14]

Originally posted by clouddawg:

For the SRO gig, I would say four things 1) Dont be that guy who orders all the other students around just because you are the SRO. Even though there may only be one or two pay grade differences the 1 and 2 Lts are still learning leadership from what you do, even in a minor role as SRO.

I agree, but 2Lts need to know that Capt > 2Lt when it is necessary. 99.9% of the time, you will work together as peers, all driving toward the same goals. They will follow your example, because you are senior to them. If one or two start dragging down the group, it's on the SRO to fix it. You should have the SA, leadership ability and knowledge to do that. The rest of the class and the IPs will expect that.

That, and what Rainman said.

4) If you have folks that have more experience, we had some 9 and 10 year former enlisted people, ask them to help put things in perspective. So when an Lt gets pissed off that he has to pay dues or sit snack go they might have some helpful words to tell the snotty fellow Lt how to shut up and color.

Or, you could do that, since you are the SRO. Looking at your posts, it looks like you want to be the "good cop" and maybe have that prior E be the "bad cop", which is fine. Personally, I'd rather fix the problem myself, and let the prior guys explain to the youngin' the error in his ways.

Either way, you are accomplishing the same thing, getting a young 2Lt back to where he needs to be.

Lead, mentor, learn, fly, work together, do good, get your wings.

[Guest Kula Shaker]

Originally posted by JVBFLY:

Leadership differences between the AF and Army? I was hoping this thread would continue to provide insight into being an SRO, not how horrible AF leaders are and how much better army LTs are. Any more thoughts on the SRO topic??

I think it DOES provide insight. Drelyn8 brought up the Army example to show his disappointment in AF leadership training. I pointed out my first year of AF service has left me qualified for nothing even though I joined to fly like a lot of others. Taking that into account, what makes you think that an AF SRO is going to show up to UPT and be a *good* leader if they were like most LTs when they commissioned 4 years ago? What experience’s have they had?

Experience actually leading reveals if you can lead effectively and I think a lot of that has to be learned somewhere - it might be as an SRO:

between being SRO and having a Marine Tweet Flt/CC, I learned more about how to lead and take care of your troops in those six months than I did in the 4 years of ROTC and 8 years of being on a crew prior to that.

If you’re a new LT going to UPT, you’re probably not going to get to practice leading anytime soon, so if you have weaknesses in your leadership that could become strengths (that’s just about everyone) with some help, you don’t get to work on those areas until you’re out of UPT at least. If you have natural talent, it may stand out or it may be underdeveloped. If you have prior experience, it may show or it may not matter. Basically it’s up to AF Recruiting Service to decide who gets to be a LT and serve by not practicing leadership.

Big picture: All of this puts more weight on the SRO, if anything, to be a great example because the LTs are going to want to have a leader that they respect. Demonstrate what a good leader is instead of what a good leader is not. Help make better LTs. That’s the insight.

[Guest KoolKat]

Correct me if necessary, because this is all second hand...

From what I've been told from friends that have done Army ROTC and are a good 5 years into being an Army Officer...

What they learned in ROTC was no different then what is taught in AF ROTC.

They have minor variations on how they practiced what they learn, but the oportunities were there just the same for me in AF ROTC.

Sure, I'm not leading a tank platoon, like my one buddy was before he blew out his knee, but I have plenty of oportunity to lead.

I have even more opportunity to lead then 99% of people my age, due to the enlisted personnel around me and even the younger LTs around.

Wether it's a conversation with a new to the squad staff or helping one of the Co's fill out their 1801s, being a leader doesn't have much to do with the position you hold. It has alot more to do with who you are...

If you need to find examples of why you aren't as good of a leader as an army Officer peer...then I suggest you just spend that effort looking at yourself and what you're doing everyday.

Every interaction, even with a superior, is an opportunity to lead in someway. It's not always clear...but, leading by example isn't always, is it?

There is nothing wrong with AF leadership training. Wether there is somthing wrong with the way you apply it...I don't know.

I'm sure if you think there is, you just need more practice...there is plenty of oportunity...for everybody.

BENDY

[ 31. December 2006, 00:12: Message edited by: Bender ]

[Duff_Man]

Thread revival. I'm most likely going to be the SRO of my UPT class and I'm looking for specific, up-to-date info on the best way to dessiminate information.

I was planning on getting everyone on a WhatsAPP account, making a private facebook page, and getting a digital dropbox for the flight. Does anyone know a good web site for a digital drop box? Does anyone have any other suggestions, etc for how to use the interwebs and the modern technologies to make our lives easier? I'll be going to ENJJPT, so are there issues with foreign dudes not having smart phones or phones with international numbers?

Does anyone have any advice for helping out the SnackO? Is there a Costco that everyone goes to or will we have to order corn and jalapenos from www.popcornplaza.com? What about UPT bling? What's the standard stuff that everyone orders (pint glasses, zaps, shirts, coins, etc)? And how much were the squadron dues (just $69 on the first day or something)?

Also, does anyone have any advice on the best way to divide up the flight jobs and labor in the flight (3 SnackOs, 1 photographer, 2 class video dudes, 1 tax collector, etc). And what were the most time-consuming queep jobs/tasks?

My gameplan is to have a meeting Day 0 where we get all the queep figured out so that nobody gets screwed with a disproportionate amount of work 6-9 months later and then roll that right into a keg party. I'd rather get all this stuff squared away in advance so that it doesn't cut into our studying/drinking time during UPT.

[Ram]

Spoiler alert: You are ALL snackos.

[Kenny Powers]

Don't worry about this stuff now man, it's really not that big of a deal and there will be time to figure it out when you get there. Your change over class and others will show you the ropes.

Snacko is by far the most important/tasking duty but still no big deal. As said above, all studs are snackos, so help your assigned Snacko out when they need it.

Otherwise, the additional duties/queep is fairly minimal, so don't worry about it now.

Also, a website for digital drop box would be www.dropbox.com and for group messages, an app called groupme. Those two are basically standard for most classes and work well.

As far as assigning additional duties, let people pick, it'll work itself out.

Edited May 5, 2014 by Kenny Powers

[guineapigfury]

Also, does anyone have any advice on the best way to divide up the flight jobs and labor in the flight (3 SnackOs, 1 photographer, 2 class video dudes, 1 tax collector, etc). And what were the most time-consuming queep jobs/tasks?

My gameplan is to have a meeting Day 0 where we get all the queep figured out so that nobody gets screwed with a disproportionate amount of work 6-9 months later and then roll that right into a keg party. I'd rather get all this stuff squared away in advance so that it doesn't cut into our studying/drinking time during UPT.

Class video dude is whoever finishes first.