Questions on TPS (Test Pilot School)

[Guest aerogrd]

Anyone know if being a FAIP hurts your chances or makes it impossible to get into Test Pilot school. I've heard rumors that being FAIPed won't allow you to go to TPS or Weapons school.

Currently I am a T-6 FAIP working on my masters in aero engineering. Does anyone know anything about it? Do they want guys to have moslty MWS time, obviously a FAIP won't have as much compared to someone who went right to their MWS after UPT. Well any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

[Toro]

Being a FAIP in and of itself doesn't hurt your chances, but the time spent on your FAIP tour bites into the Ops time and experience you need to accumulate before being eligible for either of these assignments. Retired AF mentioned it's a factor for heavies - it's just as much a factor for the fighters. I've never heard a FAIP doing either, but that's not to say it hasn't happened. I'll use weapon school as an example of why;

I don't know the rank cut-off for entering WIC, but I know they like mid-range captains (definitely no majors). If you were to have a FAIP tour followed by an Ops tour, you're going to be pinning on major (or close to it) by the end of that Ops tour. The one way around this is to only take a two-year Ops tour, but you need a minimum of 50 hours of instructor time in your aircraft to apply for WIC. I don't see anyway somebody could upgrade through 2-ship flight lead, 4-ship, and instructor in two years. Most guys aren't even able to do it in three years.

[Guest aerogrd]

Well, thanks for taking the time to respond and give me some info. I'll try and see what happens, the way I look at it, if I didn't get in at least I tried. But like you both said, being FAIPed cuts into your time in a MWS. I have a fighter/bomber follow on after my FAIP tour, so we'll see were that takes me. Actually, I have a couple more questions, if you don't mind. Retired AF, you mentioned that you tried it, I had a question on the requirements. The AFI regarding selection states that pilot applicants need to be instructor qualified or have at least 750 hours total time, would I be able to count the time I log as a FAIP into that 750. Also, it mentions you need to have been an A/C in an MWS for at least 12 months, when I go to RTU, assuming I get a fighter, since I would be solo most of the time, can you count your student time at RTU as A/C time.

Toro, do FAIPS tend to upgrade quicker to 2 ship flight lead, 4 ship, etc. Or do they take just as long as someone right out of UPT for the most part.

Well, thanks again for your replies, I really appreciate it.

[Toro]

Originally posted by aerogrd:

The AFI regarding selection states that pilot applicants need to be instructor qualified or have at least 750 hours total time, would I be able to count the time I log as a FAIP into that 750.

I'd have to read the reg to be sure of the exact wording, but if it says total time, then that would include FAIP time.

Also, it mentions you need to have been an A/C in an MWS for at least 12 months, when I go to RTU, assuming I get a fighter, since I would be solo most of the time, can you count your student time at RTU as A/C time.

Being solo doesn't matter - in FTU you're still the A/C with an instructor in your pit. I don't know about this one. Again, I'd have to read the reg to be sure of the wording, but I imagine you'd need 12 months of operational experience in your MWS.

do FAIPS tend to upgrade quicker to 2 ship flight lead, 4 ship, etc. Or do they take just as long as someone right out of UPT for the most part.

In theory it's quicker for FAIPs. The F-15 regs say that to upgrade to 2FL you need 300 hours in the aircraft, or 200 hours if you were a FAIP. I heard this from a C model bud of mine and tried to tell the chief of training, but he ignorantly said it wasn't true (I didn't know exactly what reg said this). Several months later, the new chief asked me if I was a FAIP and why I hadn't started my upgrade yet, then pulled open the reg right to the page that explained the pre-reqs. At that point I was right at 300 hours, but there were already four dudes ahead of me who had started and I had to get in line.

The experience and airmanship may help you in 4FLUG - the only prereq for that is having completed 2FLUG, but most guys are given several months to a year between the two.

[Guest Retired AF]

Agree with Toro on question 1, on #2 I believe your 1 year starts upon completion of a form 8 checkride in the position of aircraft commander. Therefore it is the checkride at the end of training, not a mission check back at home unit. Question 3 is outside my vast realm of experience. ;) Good luck, like I said, if you don't try, you won't know.

[Guest STLCFII]

Does anyone know if it is possible to get into Test Pilot School without an Engineering degree/background? Also, do you need to be a fighter jock to become one? Just Curious, Thanks!

[ClearedHot]

Engineering degrees are highly desired but not required. Math or science degrees qualify you to apply.

[TheInner]

To answer the other half of your question, no you do not need to be a fighter guy to go to TPS

[Guest rotorhead]

I ran the TPS selection boards at AFPC 3 years ago... GPA is huge. After that, there is some hierarchy of desired degrees, for example (at that time it seemed to be) EE, then AE, then ME, and then CE last. However, a ME with a 3.8 trumped an EE with a 3.0, etc., so it is hard to compare apples to apples. Also, each board member has a different arrangement of priorities, for example GPA vs. degree, or school, or awards on AD, or job on AD, etc. etc.

It also depends on tests upcoming in the next year...for example, they may need a bomber nav one year, but not the next...they may want some air to mud fighter dudes one year over an air to air guy for upcoming tests, etc. But all of it goes into the big blender on the boards.

There are pilots, navs, and nonrated flight test engineers.

The boards are pretty brutal..."I like this guy's award as Company Grade Officer of the Millenium, but he got a C- in Super Advanced Thermodynamics VI."

[Guest Sundowner]

https://www.edwards.af.mil/tps/eligibility.htm

[Guest nateanding]

Rotorhead,

You sound like you have the inside track on what it takes to get into Test Pilot School.

A few quick questions: What GPA do they end up looking at for selection?

For undergrad, is it the GPA for your technical classes (ie. in your major), or your cumulative GPA.

If you have a Masters, do they still look at undegrad GPA?

A little background on myself: I am currently in ROTC and going for a Masters before I go to UPT. My GPA in my undergrad major(Aerospace) is good, but my first year of college has dragged my cumulative undergrad GPA down to a 3.3.

If anyone else can answer these questions please do. Thanks!

[ 07. March 2005, 01:43: Message edited by: Dagger1 ]

[Guest jraedy]

I think that a 3.5 (technical degree required) is about average. As a pilot you need to have at least 750 hours to apply, but the current class averages over 1400 hours. Master's degrees help a lot, but they select some people to do a combined TPS/AFIT program to get a master's. The most important thing is to have an flawless safety record.

Test pilots aren't superhuman, so don't let anyone scare you off with those types of stereotypes. They generally aren't the hot dog/Corvette-driving types that a lot of people seem to think they are. They're more likely to be pilots who love engineering and drive beat up 15-year-old Nissan Sentra's because they like to work on them. It's not like "The Right Stuff" anymore.

You can just about say goodbye to any chance of flying operationally after TPS. You'll be at Edwards, Eglin, and/or Wright-Patt for the better part of your career. Promotion isn't any quicker. I haven't been in an operational squadron, but I'm positive that these guys fly much, much less than operational pilots. Testing is slow and sometimes process-driven, so the sortie rate is very low.

[ 07. March 2005, 01:54: Message edited by: RaptorEngineer ]

[Spartacus]

There is some good advice about TPS on here. I was just at Edwards this last week and saw the TPS. Pretty top notch people there. The briefing that we got said that the average GPA is around a 3.6 for pilots, navs, and engineers. Your flying record needs to be at least near perfect and most guys there had a masters and a lot even had PhD's. It's pretty elite stuff. You get to fly 25-30 airplanes throughout the course and you travel to other countries to fly some of their planes too. One of the TPS class is heading to Brazil and Spain right now to fly some of their stuff and see what they have going on.

From what I gathered it seems like flying life is pretty much over after TPS. You spend 3-4 years being a test pilot and then you get sent to the Pentagon to fly a desk and you'll probably never fly operationaly again.

[Guest SnakeT38]

One of my friends who is a test pilot was a Distinguished Grad from the Astro Dept at USAFA, masters in Aero from George Washington Univ while working with NASA. Oh, and by the way, #1 Grad out of UPT class; Top T-38 instructor pilot in AETC; marathoner; skier; and one of the best pilots I've seen.

Takes a tech degree with a "very high" GPA; recommendations from commanders; mostly fighter pilots; testing and interviews. Don't know the specifics, just that my friend actually had to study to prep for the interview. (not someone you would normally catch having to study).

I have seen several kinds get in. The "technical" degree is a must for a pilot. One of my first students in UPT (1983) was a very average guy and finished middle of an 80 person class but still got an A-10. Did OV-10, then F-16, got MECH E MS degree then applied but went to Navy TPS. Just retired and now flies the latest "big block" Vipers for Lockheed at NAS JRB Ft Worth. A little time upside down over Iraq didn't hurt either during DS.

[Guest jrobb]

Does anyone know what the typical career track is for test pilots? I commission in 2 days, have my pilot slot and majored in Physics and Applied Math hoping that would be technical enough to make me competitive. I asked my ROTC instructor but couldn't get a straight answer about how selection for that field works. I guess my three main questions are:

1. Do I have to do grad school before I am competitive?

2. Is the career track such that it would exclude me from serving in combat ready squadrons? I want to serve on the point as much as I want to fly the untested. Do I have to choose between the two or is it possible to pull a Yeager and get the best of both?

3. What does the typical test pilot career look like?

Thanks in advance. I really appreciate those of you who know what you’re talking about investing in those of us that don’t.

[Spartacus]

I am just an ROTC guy, but I've visited the TPS twice and they have gone over what it's like as a Test Pilot. However, I'm sure some other people will post who know more about this than I do. This is just a start.

1. The vast amount of people in the TPS had a masters or higher in a technical area. Their GPA's were also very high. (3.9 range) There were even a few who had PhD's.

2. From what we were told the people who go to TPS work as test pilots for a few years and then basically go to a few places to do "administrative" type work. However, it seems like some still do the test pilot thing for a while at other locations across the country. Basically, from what I gathered, you will not be flying like you want to, ie combat, once you have become a test pilot. This makes sense to me because why would they want to risk you after all of that?

3. Don't know, but what we were told is that once you hit 12-15 in after TPS you will be doing a lot of other work besides combat flying. I think a lot actually go to the Pentagon too and work there.

[Toro]

Originally posted by jrobb:

2. Is the career track such that it would exclude me from serving in combat ready squadrons?

No. We had a TPS grad at my last squadron who took the all-expense trip with us to the desert.

[Guest mr_gordon777]

Have there ever been test pilot candidates that served exclusively in the ANG or Reserves prior to TPS? Also, do they have exchange programs where AF pilots go to the Naval TPS and vice-versa?

[Flaco]

I know of at least one. He was a Buckley guy with a masters in EE from MIT.

This page seems to support the idea. https://www.edwards.af.mil/tps/eligibility.htm

Good luck.

Flaco

[Rocker]

https://www.tps06a.com/multimedia.htm

Well documented, well laid out. Some of the videos are pretty amusing. A good way to kill an hour.

[spectre56]

Speaking of TPS, I know it's something you have to apply for, but would it be categorized as an ALFA tour or white jet tour, or just a special duty?

[HuggyU2]

Speaking of TPS, I know it's something you have to apply for, but would it be categorized as an ALFA tour or white jet tour, or just a special duty?

Not an ALFA tour, I'm almost positive.

It really changes your entire career track, once you graduate.

[Fozzy Bear]

FWIW, some of the board for TPS actually came around AMC a while back. They were trying to get pilots, navs, just about anyone to apply to TPS and other special duties - applications have been way down. According to a couple Lt Cols, the idea is changing on who comes in and what the career of a TPS grad looks like. As opposed to staying there and then doing staff, they want young people to come in (even accepting copilots) and once they graduate, they'll send them back in the real AF to do some good. The idea behind allowing less qualified people (younger) in is to get more time out of them as graduates than the older guys.

The moral of the story was to apply, if ya wanna go - no matter who you are.

Edited October 2, 2007 by Fozzy Bear

[Guest Technique only]

Kinda makes me wish I had an engineering degree...I mean flying 40 different AC thats awesome!

But then again, 4 years of not doing shit for a polisci degree was probably a better choice...

Forgive my ignorance but I don't know too much about the TPS program. There are heavy guys and fighter guys in the class so don't the fighter guys fly the fighters and the heavy guys fly the heavies? I thought the 40 aircraft was what the class had flown as opposed to what each individual had flown.

Also, if the requirements have eased up somewhat, anyone know what it takes to be competitive nowandays? It seemed like in the past you pretty much needed perfect grades and just as good of a FEF.

[HerkDerka]

There are heavy guys and fighter guys in the class so don't the fighter guys fly the fighters and the heavy guys fly the heavies?

Heavy guys who get selected have to go through T-38 transition prior to their class start. The whole class flies the same aircraft regardless of background.

HD

Edited October 3, 2007 by HerkDerka