Questions on TPS (Test Pilot School)

[Tonka]

A technical type, yes, but with a dream to fly still. I feel I'd be more competitive as a military pilot (if I'm any good!) with a PhD than as a civilian with a PhD.

PhD will look stellar on any application, but (IMHO) I don't think the type of your engineering discipline really matters. It is more of having a basic understanding of scientific/engineering principles than being an expert in aeronautical evaluation.... i.e. what you are going to learn is so broad that there is not 1 discipline that will be more beneficial than any other (in general). It is not at all uncommon for chemical engineers to be selected. Heck, with all the laser beams on aircraft over the last decade there might even be a calling for them... you just never know what the AF might need in 5 years.

And FYI: half the class is generally FTEs (slightly modified now with RPA folks, so I'm not sure of the exact ratio) which most folks don't realize.

I suppose one thing I could do is find a position with a defense contractor (or related) that would give me T&E experience more appropriate to aviation.

That might take more years than you are willing to sacrifice. I have not worked for a def contractor or a civilian aircraft manufacture, but I'm guessing you can't walk in off the street directly into T&E for them... you might have better luck as a Government Employee (if they ever start hiring again) for a Test unit.

Could anyone elaborate on how the training of an FTE differs from the pilot types?

Not to sound like a jerk, but it is close to the same except in general the pilots sit up front and the FTEs sit in back (but the FTEs do get a fair amount of training where they are actually doing the flying).

[Spoo]

MDS = Mission Designation Series. As in the designation of your aircraft.

Minor point, but it's Mission Design Series.

[Dupe]

Don't go to TPS because you want to be an astronaut. Don't go because you think a year of flying a wide variety of aircraft sounds fun to you. Go because you want to be part of how the Air Force aquires and tests new systems.

Some of that testing is amazingly awesome. Much of it is god awful boring. Sometimes you wish you didn't know how the sausage is really made. In the end, going to TPS for the wrong reasons will set you up for many years of unhappiness in the future. My time in DT has been good so far, but part of me would give anything to push accross student gap at Red Flag or hear a real 9-line from a JTAC complete with 7.62 fire in the background again.

[hindsight2020]

Don't go to TPS because you want to be an astronaut. Don't go because you think a year of flying a wide variety of aircraft sounds fun to you. Go because you want to be part of how the Air Force aquires and tests new systems.

Some of that testing is amazingly awesome. Much of it is god awful boring. Sometimes you wish you didn't know how the sausage is really made. In the end, going to TPS for the wrong reasons will set you up for many years of unhappiness in the future. My time in DT has been good so far, but part of me would give anything to push accross student gap at Red Flag or hear a real 9-line from a JTAC complete with 7.62 fire in the background again.

Sound advice. I wonder though, why did you decide to go that route then? Honest question.

[Dupe]

Sound advice. I wonder though, why did you decide to go that route then? Honest question.

Like Huggy, I have an addiction. I like knowing how airplanes are built and how they work. Getting to know exactly how my platform works has been awesome. Being able to talk to the system experts after nearly each sortie is a great experience...I know so much more about radars, threat sensors, and weapons than I did when I was in the CAF.

Fighting with various program offices or trying to convince some in the systems development community to "stop building what you've already built" has been a challenge.

[Muscle2002]

Don't go to TPS because you want to be an astronaut. Don't go because you think a year of flying a wide variety of aircraft sounds fun to you. Go because you want to be part of how the Air Force aquires and tests new systems.

Some of that testing is amazingly awesome. Much of it is god awful boring. Sometimes you wish you didn't know how the sausage is really made. In the end, going to TPS for the wrong reasons will set you up for many years of unhappiness in the future. My time in DT has been good so far, but part of me would give anything to push accross student gap at Red Flag or hear a real 9-line from a JTAC complete with 7.62 fire in the background again.

All good words. I'm sure even the ops guys right now would love to fly in Red Flag again given the current budget reality.

[Milchstrasse]

I should clarify that I have never thought seriously about the astronaut option until very recently. I just didn't think it was even an option to be seriously considered. I've been dead-set on military aviation for a long time now. It was a childhood dream for me that I gave up because of some false information (need 20/20, need to go through the academy, etc). Then I found out about OTS some 6 years ago. The PhD was something I couldn't turn down and decided to incorporate it into my plans with the Air Force.

Ideally I'd like to talk to active test pilots to know exactly what they do on a day-to-day or flight-to-flight basis.From what I do know though -- and from years of doing academic research -- think I'd be just fine with the tedium involved in thorough testing.

Apparently some 6,300+ applicants applied to the most recent astronaut board (2012), which is the most that have applied since 8,000 in 1978. With historical selection rates of < 1%, I'm not banking on becoming an astronaut. However, I can say with a high degree of confidence that I'd be thrilled with whatever I am doing along the way.

[olevelo]

Getting the patch basically just gets you one of the minimum requirements to become an astronaut. Looking at the list the Air Force put forward to NASA, I personally knew at least 60% of them from TPS, and probably half of the rest I had heard their name from TPS. Our senior class's patch night video included "interviews" with the class members, and there's a reason every answer to "Why do you want to come to TPS?" was "I'm gonna be an astronaut!"

I'd say the civilian route as an FTE would be about the most difficult way to get in. First of all, I'm pretty sure you have to be a GS...I don't know of any contractors that have gone through (at least not as a contractor! NTPS is an option though.). And there's usually only one civilian slot per class, if that. We didnt have any.

At the same time, competition varies among positions. I'd guess that the hardest to easiest positions to get selected are FTE, fighter pilot, RPA, WSO, heavy pilot, nav. I say that based on the combination of number of applicants and quality of applicants. The FTE's frequently have to apply 3-4 times before getting selected, a masters is pretty much a completely hard requirement and PhD is common enough. Rated across the board "require" a masters but I've seen enough get in without one that a strong record and good recommendation can overcome that. Heavy pilots (especially C-130) and navs have the advantage that there are far fewer guys applying/qualified for those slots. But you still have to make cut line...even if you're the only C-130 pilot meeting the board, and we desperately need C-130 test pilots, if you don't stack up, you still don't get selected.

[Masshole]

Ideally I'd like to talk to active test pilots to know exactly what they do on a day-to-day or flight-to-flight basis.

Seconded, at least what is allowed to be discussed. It seems like we never get anyone with this background for career day. I was able to pick Col.Dunlop's brain a little but I still have a lot of questions about it.

[Sketch]

Seconded, at least what is allowed to be discussed. It seems like we never get anyone with this background for career day. I was able to pick Col.Dunlop's brain a little but I still have a lot of questions about it.

If you're really interested, and can afford to fork over the dime, talk to your cadre and try setting up a PDT/shadowing opportunity at Edwards.

[Masshole]

If you're really interested, and can afford to fork over the dime, talk to your cadre and try setting up a PDT/shadowing opportunity at Edwards.

Our detachment has cut out pretty much everything, including the base visits/shadowing. It might be worth a shot to pay for it myself, but I am not sure anyone is doing that anymore.

[Sketch]

Our detachment has cut out pretty much everything, including the base visits/shadowing. It might be worth a shot to pay for it myself, but I am not sure anyone is doing that anymore.

A few years ago (after the PDT cuts) we had a pair of cadets fly out to Langley and shadow some raptor guys at the 94th on their own dime, so cadets still do it. Its worth it if you can afford it, just let your cadre know you're interested and they should be able to get you some contact info.

[Clayton Bigsby]

Minor point, but it's Mission Design Series.

Yeah, I thought it might be that but went with the other. Been awhile.

[olevelo]

We setup a briefing to the Pensacola nav students last year, as its a short drive from Eglin/Hurlburt. Hoping to do it again this year. It's a little harder with the pilot schools since none of them are near any test bases. There have also been pushes to roadshow to the ops units but even before the budget cuts that was difficult.

[R-Dub]

Anyone currently flying test have any insight into how sequestration is going to affect the DT world? Specifically, are the current financial issues plaguing going to have any tangible affects on this year's selection?

Additionally, the change to the 99-107 now limits fixed-wing applicants to a 9 year, 6 month total TAFCS instead of the 10 year, 3 month from the previously issued regulation. With that being said, does anyone know the relative success rate for requested waivers for TAFCS?

Thanks for any potential insight.

[Muscle2002]

Anyone currently flying test have any insight into how sequestration is going to affect the DT world? Specifically, are the current financial issues plaguing going to have any tangible affects on this year's selection?

Additionally, the change to the 99-107 now limits fixed-wing applicants to a 9 year, 6 month total TAFCS instead of the 10 year, 3 month from the previously issued regulation. With that being said, does anyone know the relative success rate for requested waivers for TAFCS?

Thanks for any potential insight.

There have been some reductions in non-test flying (flying done to maintain currency or for upgrades), but the DT&E budget is different from CAF FHPs. They already reduced the class size from 24 to 20 starting with 13A. This was done largely because the throughput in many ways exceeded capacity. However, with the current budget issues, I would not be surprised if this continues as opposed to going back to 24 like there was a rumor of after 2-3 classes.

Regarding the change to the AFI: even though the old version stated the TAFCS was 10.25 years, the last 3-4 boards all had the same restriction as the current AFI (the AFI revision process just took a while to catch up to reflect this reality). There is no published success rate. I can tell you that in my class, about half of the pilots were over the TAFCS limit, but that changes from year to year based on upcoming DT programs and the types of pilots they desire. Furthermore, it's not uncommon to have to apply more than once to get in.

It really depends on what you fly. I know of one guy who was an alternate one year, then the next was denied a waiver for TAFCS. I surmise it was largely due to having enough heavy pilots apply. Generally, being an alternate one year can be viewed as a stepping stone to getting in the next.

Edited April 20, 2013 by Muscle2002

[Dupe]

My personal view is that AFMC should not even broach the thought of TAFCS waivers. The timeline is way too short for guys anything beyond the 10 year mark. After selection, you've got to get through a year of TPS, serve a couple years as a line test pilot and go to school before your command years. If you're at the 10 year point when you come in the door to AFMC, there just isn't enough time to fit all that in. We've had guys go to school/staff, then come back to AFMC as Test Sq/CCs after only a year's experience in test....that's a huge foul to the community. I wish we could just have an "Active duty line test pilot untill you retire" track, but that's as likely to happen as bringing warrant officers back to the AF. We do have a few Reservist and GS test pilot positions within AFMC, but you generally have to be an active duty tester to even be considered for those.

[matmacwc]

I wish we could just have an "Active duty line test pilot untill you retire" track.

We do

https://www.aatc.ang.af.mil/

[Muscle2002]

We do

https://www.aatc.ang.af.mil/

Except the one or two AD guys that get to go there only stay for one tour.

[Muscle2002]

My personal view is that AFMC should not even broach the thought of TAFCS waivers. The timeline is way too short for guys anything beyond the 10 year mark. After selection, you've got to get through a year of TPS, serve a couple years as a line test pilot and go to school before your command years. If you're at the 10 year point when you come in the door to AFMC, there just isn't enough time to fit all that in. We've had guys go to school/staff, then come back to AFMC as Test Sq/CCs after only a year's experience in test....that's a huge foul to the community. I wish we could just have an "Active duty line test pilot untill you retire" track, but that's as likely to happen as bringing warrant officers back to the AF. We do have a few Reservist and GS test pilot positions within AFMC, but you generally have to be an active duty tester to even be considered for those.

On the flip side, however, the timeline to garner the desired experience the board often seeks coupled with a Master's is rather short as well. Younger guys would fit the above build better, but there is a higher likelihood they'll show up to their first test assignment having never been an IP (which is not the end of the world), but does require more sorties to get them upgraded. The latest group of soon-to-be IPs at TPS were for the most part not IPs in their previous assignments; while not bad, having some seasoning before flying with students would probably help.

[R-Dub]

Hopefully last question...but kind of related to my previous. Are the applications for TPS supposed to be routed through your host wing/MAJCOM to AFPC, or are individual applicants to send in their package (sts) via the guidance from the latest PSDM on their own?

Again, thanks for any and all help!

[Muscle2002]

Hopefully last question...but kind of related to my previous. Are the applications for TPS supposed to be routed through your host wing/MAJCOM to AFPC, or are individual applicants to send in their package (sts) via the guidance from the latest PSDM on their own?

Again, thanks for any and all help!

Follow the PSDM. Even before the change, I and others submitted an application directly to AFPC (obviously, I had conferred with my chain of command previously). The application process is not like WIC where applications go through the Wg/CC.

[olevelo]

You probably want to get guidance from your squadron/group/wing. The wings who are used to this will want it routed to them, and they'll forward it to AFPC. Some have no clue what TPS even stands for...in that case you need to do the legwork. Then there are the places that will try to c*ckblock you *cough*AFSOC*cough*, and you'll have to pretty much go VFR direct.

[Tonka]

... Then there are the places that will try to c*ckblock you *cough*AFSOC*cough*, and you'll have to pretty much go VFR direct.

I've actually heard of more than AFSOC that has done this, there are more than a few stories of "we didn't realize there was a deadline" and "sorry we lost it"... Make sure it gets in early and then call to confirm it is there! The only person that cares about it being submitted is you... you are essentially telling your MAJCOM to go pound sand, I'm going to try my luck somewhere else.

[Dupe]

I've even heard of the losing MAJCOM stepping to AFPC and not releasing a guy to the test community once he's been selected. As a side note, rated TPS grads have our own AFPC functional vice the MDS-specific guy you had on the porch before.