Questions on TPS (Test Pilot School)

[flyingmoustache]

Thanks for the feedback, I'm guessing that my application will be a long-shot, but I'm a firm believer in the logic that there is nothing to lose by going for it since the worst they can do is say no.  

[Bullseye283]

Trying to keep this thread going. Tons on info on here, but I haven't found anything that specifically address second assignments. 

My education: I have a BS in Mechanical Engineering (3.8 GPA) and I'm getting my Master's degree in a non-technical field.

My situation: I'm currently an E-3 copilot planning to upgrade to AC this summer. At the rate I'm going, I'll have my 1000 hours TT by EOY 2019.

My goal is to go straight to TPS from this assignment (20A course); however, in the event this doesn't work out what second assignment would set me up best for the next application? Mainly, would it be a bad idea to switch air-frames, or do I need to stay in my MWS to become an IP ASAP? The primary options that I'm thinking about are C-21's or E-3's to Europe, T-1's in Columbus, or going back to E-3's in OKC, but I'm open to suggestions as well.

I'm also interested in gathering data about the Joint AFIT/TPS program.

Additionally, if anyone has any info that would help a heavy dude's application or if you have any contacts that wouldn't mind talking, please PM me.

I hope this isn't too much. Thanks in advance for any advice!

 

Edited February 27, 2018 by Bullseye283

[olevelo]

I’d say all of those options are about equal. Unfortunately there’s not exactly a demand for E-3 test pilots, but also not for C-21 or T-1. Not to say that you can’t get picked up out of any of those, just that you would be selected based on the rest of your record rather than a specific need. So this is the classic “bloom where you’re planted”, and go for something that you’ll enjoy and don’t look at it as a stepping stone.

The AFIT option is 18 months there prior to TPS, followed by another 3-4 months at TPS after graduation to finish your thesis before moving to your first assignment. Not sure what else you want to know.

[Tonka]

Some speculation, some more pertinent than others:

MWS is better than a white jet,

IP in an MWS is better than a white jet IP, especially UPT base,

AC in an MWS is PROBABLY better than a white jet IP, especially UPT base

2 aircraft are better than 1,

2 MWS aircraft are better than an MWS and a white Jet... 

IMHO: I would try hard to get the MWS IP, and wouldn't consider going white-jet (unless there is some other compelling reason, i.e. family life).  There is a reason we make make first assignment IPs in the training jets... for you it wouldn't help the resume much.  But you probably need to be an IP to be competitive as a heavy bubba.

But those are really secondary to: Can you handle the academics of the course.  There are minimums for the above, and which of the above is better might only come into play if everything else is pretty close between you and the next guy (look at the application reg and see the break down of requirements, flying experience isn't overwhelming).  If you can't get the minimums or you can't get out of a white jet (other people reading this thread), do something academic and impressive somewhere else.  Get something with "test" in it, go test a new flare load out (that the last WIC guy wrote a paper on), go "Test" a new procedure in the sim, go "test" the new urinal, etc... tell your CC and DO what you want to do, tell them you want anything "Test" that comes down the pipe for your aircraft, etc, etc... Even if something is ground based-only, show the initiative, the willingness to learn and try something new.  Job titles matter too, Exec and "Chief of X" are PROBABLY better than assistant chief of flight safety. Show leadership. When you're young put it on your OPR -"Our Best candidate for TPS"... shows you didn't just start thinking about this last year.

Non-technical Masters is PROBABLY not helping you dramatically... especially if it is a "Box-filler" school.  If it is an MBA from Harvard-sure that helps.

Last note: the board, like the school and AFMC, has a higher percentage of fighter dudes then anything else... just like you don't speak fighter, they don't speak heavy.  Even within those community, the same terms have different meanings.  They don't care that you can do something special in your MWS unless you help paint the picture of it... no one but other E-3 pilots know how hard something is to do in the E-3... There is not a high chance that an E-3 knowledgeable person will be on the board.

[Muscle2002]

3 hours ago, Tonka said:

Some speculation, some more pertinent than others:

MWS is better than a white jet,

IP in an MWS is better than a white jet IP, especially UPT base,

AC in an MWS is PROBABLY better than a white jet IP, especially UPT base

2 aircraft are better than 1,

2 MWS aircraft are better than an MWS and a white Jet... 

IMHO: I would try hard to get the MWS IP, and wouldn't consider going white-jet (unless there is some other compelling reason, i.e. family life).  There is a reason we make make first assignment IPs in the training jets... for you it wouldn't help the resume much.  But you probably need to be an IP to be competitive as a heavy bubba.

If only the above were true in practice.  Over the past six years, I've seen more pilots that were not MWS IPs, were FAIPs, and had only one assignment in an MWS suggesting that, despite what AFI 99-107 says, being an instructor and having experience in a MWS is not incredibly important in selecting TPS applicants.  I mention this not to suggest that Tonka's reply is incorrect, only that, like he points out below, flying ability does not seem to matter as much to the board.  Now, does it matter to the TPS Chief Test Pilot?  Absolutely, but his evaluation process constitutes only a portion of an applicant's overall score.

But those are really secondary to: Can you handle the academics of the course.  There are minimums for the above, and which of the above is better might only come into play if everything else is pretty close between you and the next guy (look at the application reg and see the break down of requirements, flying experience isn't overwhelming).  If you can't get the minimums or you can't get out of a white jet (other people reading this thread), do something academic and impressive somewhere else.  Get something with "test" in it, go test a new flare load out (that the last WIC guy wrote a paper on), go "Test" a new procedure in the sim, go "test" the new urinal, etc... tell your CC and DO what you want to do, tell them you want anything "Test" that comes down the pipe for your aircraft, etc, etc... Even if something is ground based-only, show the initiative, the willingness to learn and try something new.  Job titles matter too, Exec and "Chief of X" are PROBABLY better than assistant chief of flight safety. Show leadership. When you're young put it on your OPR -"Our Best candidate for TPS"... shows you didn't just start thinking about this last year.

That academic performance matters is unquestionable.  Bullseye283 should probably be aware that GPAs are typically higher among pilots than they are among CSOs, which are generally higher than the Engineers' GPAs.

Non-technical Masters is PROBABLY not helping you dramatically... especially if it is a "Box-filler" school.  If it is an MBA from Harvard-sure that helps.

Last note: the board, like the school and AFMC, has a higher percentage of fighter dudes then anything else... just like you don't speak fighter, they don't speak heavy.  Even within those community, the same terms have different meanings.  They don't care that you can do something special in your MWS unless you help paint the picture of it... no one but other E-3 pilots know how hard something is to do in the E-3... There is not a high chance that an E-3 knowledgeable person will be on the board.

 

Attached is an AIAA article written by Bill "Evil" Gray, USAF TPS Chief Test Pilot, about the new-at-the-time selection process.  It is a good read for learning more about what the test community seeks in aspiring test pilots.

USAF_Test_Pilot_Selection_for_the_Next_Generation.pdf

[gimmeaplane]

On 3/3/2018 at 3:40 PM, Muscle2002 said:

Bullseye283 should probably be aware that GPAs are typically higher among pilots than they are among CSOs, which are generally higher than the Engineers' GPAs.

Fightin’ words for nerd flag!

(Depends on whether order of merit, medical, and/or personal interest drove career path.)

Edited March 7, 2018 by gimmeaplane

[wannabeastronaut]

Restarting this thread with a couple of questions!

1) What are assignments like after graduating TPS? I'm currently flying the EC-130H, so does that mean I would go back to flying heavies or could I get an assignment flying fighter/bomber?

2) If a TSP student comes from a heavy (EC-130H) background, will he/she only fly heavies during TSP or would he/she fly, say, the F-16?

3) It looks like for pilots, master's is not required, but is it necessary for your application to be competitive?

4) Are there any bases besides Eglin and Edwards to which TPS graduates get assigned?

Thanks!

[gimmeaplane]

1) 99%+ probable heavy to heavy.  418th and 413th do cool, relevant work.

2) You’ll fly it all during TPS.

3) Depends on you, your record, and what the board needs that year.  Can’t hurt.  Check the AFIT container and they’ll send you if that’s the only thing holding you back.

4) Yes.  Edwards and Hurlburt are the main ones for heavy pilots.  But there’s a C-17 exchange to UK, KC-46 test is in Seattle, Rescue CTF is at Nellis, and Big Safari test.

Edited September 14, 2018 by gimmeaplane

[gimmeaplane]

And don’t apply to be an astronaut.  Apply to do experimental flight test.  It’s a possible path to astronaut, but that’s the slimmest cut there is.

[wannabeastronaut]

Another question for a friend. My friend is currently an 62E developmental engineer wanting to backseat F-16s for his next assignment. I know there's a route for engineers to go to TPS and then graduate as a flight test engineer, but I've also heard of 2nd Lt's backseating F-16s at Eglin fresh out of the academy as, if my memory is correct, a "flight test engineer". I might be getting the exact job titles mixed up.

Q: What's the job title for engineers who backseat F-16s without graduating TPS and without a Master's?

[war007afa]

1 hour ago, wannabeastronaut said:

Q: What's the job title for engineers who backseat F-16s without graduating TPS and without a Master's?

“Casual status”, “awaiting training”, “connected”, or “yes, she is”. 

Edited October 3, 2018 by war007afa
Trim

[Sprkt69]

5 minutes ago, war007afa said:

“Casual status”, “awaiting training”, “connected”, or “yes, she is”. 

Or the _____ award winner.

[brabus]

You can be a flight test engineer right out of commissioning, no requirement for TPS.  I believe its still a 62E AFSC, just your assignment is Eglin/Nellis/Edwards as an FTE vs. Wright Patt (as an example).  At least from what I've seen, "other" FTE jobs go to 2nd assignment FTEs, with a lot of them being TPS grads.

I don't know how you get into an FTE slot, but worth a talk with leadership, AFPC functional, etc.  PM your friend's contact info (mil) and I'll get him in contact with a couple FTEs.

Edited October 3, 2018 by brabus

[olevelo]

Another question for a friend. My friend is currently an 62E developmental engineer wanting to backseat F-16s for his next assignment. I know there's a route for engineers to go to TPS and then graduate as a flight test engineer, but I've also heard of 2nd Lt's backseating F-16s at Eglin fresh out of the academy as, if my memory is correct, a "flight test engineer". I might be getting the exact job titles mixed up.

Q: What's the job title for engineers who backseat F-16s without graduating TPS and without a Master's?

We typically refer to non-grads as “test engineers”, while the grads get the full FTE status. Obviously the non-grads have different responsibilities, but the more experienced ones (even as Lt’s) can end up being nearly indistinguishable from grads. And it’s the best way to get your foot in the door to TPS. Edwards has a lot more flying jobs for 62E’s than Eglin, but there are some on the wetter side. The grad positions have an X-code and a different shredout, but non-grads can typically fill the slots too.


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[LiquidSky]

PDSM is out. Can anyone speak to who should be writing the recs? SQ/CC, GP/CC, or higher? Are recs from experienced line pilots (EPs) useful at all? Professors?

In terms of total flying time for the resume of flying exp does stud T-6 and follow on track count/mentionable? Or only student (primary) time post-wings?

[HuggyU2]

As someone who ran the hiring of a volunteer-only USAF flying unit, I would like to recommend to you that  questions that are this important to the success of your application be asked directly to the officers that are the Gatekeepers.  

I can think of a few additional things you should do... but just start there for now.  

 

Edited March 16, 2021 by HuggyU2

[Magellan]

On 3/15/2021 at 7:48 PM, LiquidSky said:

PDSM is out. Can anyone speak to who should be writing the recs? SQ/CC, GP/CC, or higher? Are recs from experienced line pilots (EPs) useful at all? Professors?

In terms of total flying time for the resume of flying exp does stud T-6 and follow on track count/mentionable? Or only student (primary) time post-wings?

The best combo I know of is your SQ/CC and any 2 TPS grads you can find.  Even better if you can get to know them well, but you are already on the clock for this year.

Line IPs, Group/CC, Wing/CC, etc don’t mean much unless they are known by someone on the board.

I know TPS grads that used a Professor.  But it should be an Aero, Mech, or EE professor to carry much weight.  Better if that professor has successfully recommended folks for TPS before.

Don’t fudge or get cute about hours.  You have what you have.  They only care about hours after UPT.  Just fill out the form following the instructions in a way that won’t get scoffed at by O-5s and O-6s who are really smart at sniffing out BS. If they want you to have more hours before TPS they will put you in the later Alpha class as opposed to the earlier Bravo class.  This works out to 16-18 months from when you hit send until showing up at Edwards to rack up more hours.

Also, if you have GRE scores and DLAB scores put them on the form and check all the boxes associated with them.  You might just get a good deal, and it looks better (more motivated) than white space and empty boxes.

 

[Waves]

11 hours ago, Magellan said:

Also, if you have GRE scores and DLAB scores put them on the form and check all the boxes associated with them.  You might just get a good deal, and it looks better (more motivated) than white space and empty boxes.

Agreed with everything Magellan said except for this part. If you check boxes you don’t actually want to go to, you might get sent to AFIT or the Navy when you don’t want to go there.

I confirmed this with 2 commandants: they don’t take into account GRE scores or whether or not you volunteer overseas/navy/AFIT into whether you get in. They literally just do “accept/waitlist/deny” then determine who’s going to the nonstandard places after among the pool of folks that got in.

And after being in the business, I would recommend not going to AFIT and going to USAF TPS in almost all cases. Only exception is going to France/UK if your spouse really wants to travel (with a hit in the quality of school) or going to the Navy if you fly helicopters.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Waves

[Magellan]

On 3/17/2021 at 10:00 AM, Waves said:

Agreed with everything Magellan said except for this part. If you check boxes you don’t actually want to go to, you might get sent to AFIT or the Navy when you don’t want to go there.

I confirmed this with 2 commandants: they don’t take into account GRE scores or whether or not you volunteer overseas/navy/AFIT into whether you get in. They literally just do “accept/waitlist/deny” then determine who’s going to the nonstandard places after among the pool of folks that got in.

And after being in the business, I would recommend not going to AFIT and going to USAF TPS in almost all cases. Only exception is going to France/UK if your spouse really wants to travel (with a hit in the quality of school) or going to the Navy if you fly helicopters.

Which 2 commandants?  Webb and Pabon?

While they may feel that way I don't know many officers that make it to the O-6 of the Air Force without a strong implicit bias against white space.  Whether they realize it much less admit it is another thing.  The subconscious is a weird beast.

Also, unless you are max performing a timeline to make O-6, which isn't really a thing any more with BPZ being eliminated, what is the draw back of doing AFIT or any of the other schools?  It could affect IDE looks maybe...  But what do people gain by being the same cookie cutter Blue Patch as all your peers?  The USAF TPS course is more of a fraternal right of passage coupled some academic exercises and lots of really cool flying that isn't even objectively graded.  The knowledge I gained from the year of TPS was much less useful than the year I spent doing MAJCOM OT on my MDS prior to TPS.  The only benefit of USAF TPS over the other schools I see is getting to know your classmates (and their families), and that is a double edged sword if the ones you (and your families) click with during that year don't both stay at Edwards after TPS.

That said I also think the establishment over values what the course teaches when the real value of the TPS pipeline is the selection process.  You could probably take the pilots, CSOs, and FTEs selected and give the TPS resources to the CTFs and get just as good or better product at the end of the day.  But then you lose the fraternal right of passage, and the token MS in Flight Test Engineering Degree.

That said the job options that are available as a TPS grad are awesome.  Developmental/experimental flight test is the best mix of flying and nerdery out there.  Plus your peer group are some of the most outstanding individuals you will ever get to work and party with.

[Waves]

The 2 commandants in between, actually, although I’ve talked to them all.

Agree with most everything else you said. The benefit of USAF TPS, in my opinion, over Epner, Navy, or the UK is that you will have a much higher chance of having peers or people you know that you can reach out to once you graduate. That has proved valuable to me when I’ve needed to contact someone at another CTF and, between the 72 people I met (junior/senior classes), I almost always had a name.

[Josephohhumble]

1. Do they usually accept one person from a majority of airframes in the USAF inventory? It looks like this from watching some of the class videos on Youtube.

2. What percentage of people accepted are fighter pilots or cargo pilots or tanker pilots? Are cargo more desirable than tanker pilots or does this change board to board and year to year? 

3. Also, does anyone know what TPS graduates do for the Air Force after? I see people saying that they work in the pentagon after but what do they do there? I imagine they would want someone from every airframe to help test any new avionics or modifications (like new engines or winglets) that their airframe would get in the future. 

[bfargin]

3 minutes ago, Jasonrockly said:

what is a white jet tour?

UPT or C-21. 

[Josephohhumble]

On 3/3/2018 at 5:40 PM, Muscle2002 said:

Attached is an AIAA article written by Bill "Evil" Gray, USAF TPS Chief Test Pilot, about the new-at-the-time selection process.  It is a good read for learning more about what the test community seeks in aspiring test pilots.

USAF_Test_Pilot_Selection_for_the_Next_Generation.pdf

Is this method of selection still used where they send potential selected applicants out to interview and then to fly a few different aircraft? Or are people solely accepted by just the application and recommendation letters without even an interview? 

[Danger41]

It’s a multi step process. Step one is the application. If you make it past that, you’ll get brought out for the flying interview which includes flights in a glider, C-12, and a T-38 (I think). 
 

I assume you’re a pilot and not a Flight Test Engineer (FTE)?

[HuggyU2]

3 hours ago, Jasonrockly said:

what is a white jet tour?

Are you commissioned in the AF yet?