AFRC/ANG Retirement Questions

[afnav]

I'm going to try this going from AD to ANG at Ft Lewis. The Guard has an easier waiver process than the Reserves.

After three years in the ASOS/ASOG, going a half-mile away shouldn't be too hard, since they already know who I am.

AGR positions aren't easy to find, but they are standing up ASOS units all over the country, and quite a few of them are in decent locations. The key is to "get known" by the embryonic squadron commanders of these units standing up.

Another option that may be abhorrent to most is the Army National Guard. I was talking to a recruiter the other day that said I'd be one of the "young" ones (I'm 39) coming over, and would be able to stay in until 60 (all active duty time would count). There is a restriction from retiring from AF AD going to the ANG, but they are taking everyone else.

[Guest TwoDogs]

Excellent posts, all!

I know about AD retired 05's coming in and sucking up Man Days, just kidding it is a great deal for everyone, the 05 gets a shot at 06 just not sure about how the pay works. It is such a good deal that I am looking into coming back as a retired IMA reservist 04. I have an 05 slot lined up, where I work as a civilian but according to the AFRC recruiter the fact I retired in 2005 still meant that my "commissioned years of service" marched along, so they claim that I am over 23 years commissioned service, even though I am age 43 and had 21 years commissioned service at the time of retirement-- has anyone heard about this? Also yes it is much harder now that there are over 5,000 IMAs who do not have slots is what the recruiter told me. Still if people have made it happen as recently as Dec of 2007, then I am hopeful I can talk to the right people at AFRC, can anyone give me some POC information on who I can talk to? I would like to have a shot serving again my boss is willing to request the wiavers for the IMA slot because as some of you know there are not many backfills for pilots so hopefully it's just finding the right levers to pull, so any help would be appreciated.

I also have a guard unit interested in bringing me onboard, but not as a pilot :( as I have another AFSC, but the Guard recruiter didn't flinch at all when we discussed waivers, she just said it would take about a year to make it all happen and the guard doesn't have the same hoops as the Reserves it is just that I would have to commute.

PS As for joining the Army Guard, nothing against the Army brothers as I served 5 years in the Army Guard, but I wouldn't do it again, air conditioning and clean sheets spoiled me, ha!

[Guest Intact]

I am currently a federal employee. Soon I will be a traditional guardsmen. Does one retirement have any effect on the other? Anyone w/ any experience w/ this? I know I can "buy back" my ad time but, what about guard time?

Edited June 16, 2008 by Intact

[Finance_Guy]

I am currently a federal employee. Soon I will be a traditional guardsmen. Does one retirement have any effect on the other? Anyone w/ any experience w/ this? I know I can "buy back" my ad time but, what about guard time?

Hey Intact, I sent your question to someone who "might" know, but no response yet. This is really out of the finance lane and is more personnel's, specifically, Civilian personnel. I did find some info on the web that may get you started. Sorry I couldn't help much more. From a quick scan on the net, there was a ANG brochure that seems to say you would get both retirements concurrently, but you should really check with the ANG finance or Personnel folks since there may be differences in AGR and Technician jobs. I want to say I saw where Guard time could be bought back. Later.

Check out chapter 22 in this OPM Manual, CSRS and FERS Handbook for Personnel and Payroll Offices

https://www.opm.gov/asd/htm/hod.htm

Could try this email and ask your question.

mailto:benefits@cpms.osd.mil

[Chicken]

After 14 years AD I am thinking about going Guard or Reserve. I have been thinking the last couple years but the last O5 board made the decision a bit easier. I'm trying to learn everything I can about TR/ART/AGR etc but it's overwhelming right now. My ultimate goal is to retire after my 20 years and immediately draw retirement, so obviously an AGR position seems like the best bet. And I'm not picky.. I would accept pretty much anywhere doing anything to get an AGR. For anything other than an AGR AD service after 2008 is supposed to count towards reducing the retirement age from 60. So by the time I leave I could draw retirement at 52 or earlier after 20 good years. The question I have is on the reserve side... points.. and sanctuary. If I were to go into the reserve with 14 years would I have 5040(ish) points immediately towards my 7200? And from what I have heard when I reach 7200 points I can immediately draw that retirement..? So if I find a job even as a TR that puts me on mandays/orders continuously I could reach 6460 and declare sanctuary.. do 2 more years and draw a full AD retirement? Is it unit dependent whether this happens or not? I have read posts saying they "watch your days like a hawk" and prevent this. What is my best bet is this situation? Should I look for an AGR somewhere or take a chance as a TR at a unit that says they'll give me all the days I want?

[matmacwc]

You may have to look into the 2008 rule, since you already on active duty, it may not count, if it does I will be pleasantly surprised. If you get 7200, you can retire and get into the check of the month club, if your unit doesn't require you to sign a waiver letter that you will not. The unit can also impose a sanctuary waiver, so in both cases you are out of luck. The days are out there, we have years and years of them. In fact, we've had guys give up the ART jobs just to go on days. The days can be easily fetched at the ANG bureau or staff jobs sprinkled throughout the country. This is all ANG based, AFRC might be different.

[Chicken]

You may have to look into the 2008 rule, since you already on active duty, it may not count, if it does I will be pleasantly surprised. If you get 7200, you can retire and get into the check of the month club, if your unit doesn't require you to sign a waiver letter that you will not. The unit can also impose a sanctuary waiver, so in both cases you are out of luck. The days are out there, we have years and years of them. In fact, we've had guys give up the ART jobs just to go on days. The days can be easily fetched at the ANG bureau or staff jobs sprinkled throughout the country. This is all ANG based, AFRC might be different.

When would a unit ask someone to sign a waiver? What does preventing someone from getting an AD retirement do for that unit? I have heard that some units try to help their people out to get to the 18 year point.. I talked to one unit that said they would hire me GSG (?) tomorrow and pretty much be on orders as long as I want. And as AGR jobs open, guys typically get them as they are already in the unit. And as far as man days... if a unit says they have plenty of man days that's great. It concerns me a little if I were to be on man days.. If the end of my orders are up, what are the chances on average that someone doesn't get orders again? Paying mortgage, bills, etc becomes difficult.

Edited June 13, 2015 by Chicken

[nunya]

DSG = Drill Status Guardsman = traditional part timer.

GSG (?)

[Chicken]

DSG = Drill Status Guardsman = traditional part timer.

Makes sense now..

[di1630]

Can someone hit 20+ years AD and then palace chase to guard reserve? My ADSC is past 20 but I think I'd like to stay in the military if able, just not on AD.

[HeyEng]

Most units start making you signing sanctuary waivers at the 16 year point just so you don't actually go into sanctuary (I never understood the logic either) you can only declare sanctuary while mobilized, to declare otherwise is considered "inappropriate declaration of sanctuary" according to the regs. If you are declare sanctuary when you are mobilized and have two years left you can be assigned to an AD unit instead of your Reserve/Guard unit. This rarely happens but they try to scare you into not declaring sanctuary saying Big Blue might shanghai you into going to some hell - hole for your last two years.

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[olevelo]

In regards to the early retirement for active duty days since 2008...no, active duty time does not count toward that. It has to be active duty days earned as a reservist or guardsman. AGR time also does not count. The good thing is they changed it so it doesn't have to be deployed/contingency anymore, nor consecutive. There are a lot of little 3-6 month gigs both conus and oconus for folks really trying to rack up the points.

[CopyShot]

I'm probably slower than the average bear here, but just wanted to confirm my understanding of this.  Under the current rule set, is there ANY way to reduce retirement pay age other than age 60 minus Reserve/Guard drill days?  The next likely opportunity I'd have to consider making the jump from AD is around the 16 year point.  So for example, if I were to leave AD and join a reserve component and get on EAD orders for at least four years after that point, does that get me to an AD retirement, or is that still 60 minus reserve time (56 in this case)?  Thanks.

[matmacwc]

IF you get Title 10 for a deployment or MTT, every 3 months of the order reduces your age 60 retirement 3 months.  You can string a lot of those together.  Title 32 does not.

[BADFNZ]

Can someone explain the AFRC retirement system like you are explaining it to a 5th grader?  I'm trying to wrap my head around it and have read many articles, but I still have questions.

So let's say I separate from AD at 12 years service (4380 pts earned).  From this point, I would need 8 qualifying years in the AFRC to retire.  Let's say I join a white jet AETC unit at a UPT base as a TR.  If I fly 4 days a month, do these days count as AD days (earning 1 point a piece) or does this count towards a drill?  If they count as AD days, then I'd have 48 AD days a year, plus my bonus 15 points, giving me 63 points per year.  So if I earn 63 points a year for 8 years, then I'd hit 20 good years with a total of 4884 points.  At this point, I can retire, however I will not collect a check until the age of 60 (with some early retirement exceptions).  So 4884/360=13.56 years.  13.56 x 2.5% = 34%.  So this tells me my retirement paycheck would be 34% of my salary at retirement.  So is this based off the AD pay scales?  For example, if I retire as a Maj in AFRC with 20 years qualifying years, do I use the AD O-4 with 20 years value?  Or do I use O-4 with 13.56 years?  Or is there a separate AFRC retirement pay scale?

 

[nsplayr]

A) WIC answer: it depends on what type of orders you're on for the 4 days flying per month.  if they are Title 10 days, 1 point a piece.  If you're flying for drill or otherwise Title 32, a drill period is 4 hours so you can likely pull 2 for a flight, same for AFTPs.

B) I would plan on earning more than 63 points in a year.  I absolutely min-ran last year in the Guard as an unqualified aircrew member awaiting training in my unit's platform and still earned 53 points showing up to about 1/2 of the drills and doing a couple of random work days.  Plan on your fly days (4 per month) plus your drills (4 per month) plus your AT for the year (14 days), plus your 15 points for just showing up.  Right there you're at 125 points, and you haven't burned a single AFTP yet either, of which you have 48.

C) In your scenario, you retire with 34% of your Top-3 base pay, so if you just pinned on or "leveled up" in years then it's not necessarily your final year salary.  Based on the normal pay scales, there aren't any hidden ARC pay scales other than they conveniently group together what you earn per drill period.

D) Read this: https://the-military-guide.com/reserve-retirement-calculator/#toph2_1

Edited September 2, 2016 by nsplayr

[matmacwc]

2 hours ago, BADFNZ said:

Can someone explain the AFRC retirement system like you are explaining it to a 5th grader?  I'm trying to wrap my head around it and have read many articles, but I still have questions.

So let's say I separate from AD at 12 years service (4380 pts earned).  From this point, I would need 8 qualifying years in the AFRC to retire.  Let's say I join a white jet AETC unit at a UPT base as a TR.  If I fly 4 days a month, do these days count as AD days (earning 1 point a piece) or does this count towards a drill?  If they count as AD days, then I'd have 48 AD days a year, plus my bonus 15 points, giving me 63 points per year.  So if I earn 63 points a year for 8 years, then I'd hit 20 good years with a total of 4884 points.  At this point, I can retire, however I will not collect a check until the age of 60 (with some early retirement exceptions).  So 4884/360=13.56 years.  13.56 x 2.5% = 34%.  So this tells me my retirement paycheck would be 34% of my salary at retirement.  So is this based off the AD pay scales?  For example, if I retire as a Maj in AFRC with 20 years qualifying years, do I use the AD O-4 with 20 years value?  Or do I use O-4 with 13.56 years?  Or is there a separate AFRC retirement pay scale?

 

O-4 with 13.56 years.  BUT, get some orders and you can easily get the magical 7200 (or is it 7300) points get get a full retirement right away.  You get Tricare at 60 as well, almost makes the whole thing worth it.

I do think your point system is guessing pretty low though, might be a good idea to look into.

Edited September 2, 2016 by matmacwc

[Chida]

Your basic calculation is correct but assuming you transfer to the grey area at 22 years of active service and having 3 active service years as an O5, your retirement pay will be based on the max O5 pay in effect on the day you reach age 60.

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[BADFNZ]

2 hours ago, matmacwc said:

O-4 with 13.56 years.  BUT, get some orders and you can easily get the magical 7200 (or is it 7300) points get get a full retirement right away.  You get Tricare at 60 as well, almost makes the whole thing worth it.

I do think your point system is guessing pretty low though, might be a good idea to look into.

 

2 hours ago, nsplayr said:

A) WIC answer: it depends on what type of orders you're on for the 4 days flying per month.  if they are Title 10 days, 1 point a piece.  If you're flying for drill or otherwise Title 32, a drill period is 4 hours so you can likely pull 2 for a flight, same for AFTPs.

B) I would plan on earning more than 63 points in a year.  I absolutely min-ran last year in the Guard as an unqualified aircrew member awaiting training in my unit's platform and still earned 53 points showing up to about 1/2 of the drills and doing a couple of random work days.  Plan on your fly days (4 per month) plus your drills (4 per month) plus your AT for the year (14 days), plus your 15 points for just showing up.  Right there you're at 125 points, and you haven't burned a single AFTP yet either, of which you have 48.

C) In your scenario, you retire with 34% of your Top-3 base pay, so if you just pinned on or "leveled up" in years then it's not necessarily your final year salary.  Based on the normal pay scales, there aren't any hidden ARC pay scales other than they conveniently group together what you earn per drill period.

D) Read this: https://the-military-guide.com/reserve-retirement-calculator/#toph2_1

Thanks for the help fellas. 

Regarding the low estimate of 63 points a month, that was just a complete guess.  The limited amount of experience I have with ARC flying are the dudes I flew with in T-6s.  I just knew they generally flew one week a month (Mon-Thur), then we didn't see them again until next month.  I know it all depends on several factors, but would a white jet IP flying one week a month be closer to 80 points?  100?  120?  Just trying to do some rough financial planning for the future.

[nsplayr]

It depends on the type of days you burn while flying and what your goals are.

You will have at minimum 48 UTA points, 48 AFTP points, 14 AT points and 15 participation points available to you. That's 125 points right there without a day of title 10 orders. That amount of work can be accomplished in 62 days of service since you'll be doing 2x UTA or AFTP period per actual calendar day. AT periods are 1 per day and the participation points are on the house so long as you're breathing.

You can do more if there are orders to be had or less depending on your commander and the unit's requirements.

 

[BADFNZ]

2 hours ago, nsplayr said:

It depends on the type of days you burn while flying and what your goals are.

You will have at minimum 48 UTA points, 48 AFTP points, 14 AT points and 15 participation points available to you. That's 125 points right there without a day of title 10 orders. That amount of work can be accomplished in 62 days of service since you'll be doing 2x UTA or AFTP period per actual calendar day. AT periods are 1 per day and the participation points are on the house so long as you're breathing.

You can do more if there are orders to be had or less depending on your commander and the unit's requirements.

 

Thanks.

So it seems like 100 would be a realistic minimum if I'm looking at worst case scenario.

4380 (AD) + 800 (ARC)  = 5180 / 360 = 14.39 x 2.5% = 36% x $7319 (O-4 w/ 14 yrs) = $2685