AFROTC vs Guard/Reserve?

[Guest wizardpilot]

I am a freshman in college in the ROTC program. I was just wondering out of the ROTC or the Guard/Reserve, to get a pilot slot, are both equally competitive? I am just looking at other options that I may have to join and fly Military. I would not mind being an Officer in the Air Force. But the unknown of what I will be doing up until Big week is kinda getting to me. Could I have a more concrete answer as to what I would be doing if I applyed Guard/Reserve? I hear they would hire me, ots, UPT, and all this time the unit is checking up on me seeing how I am doing, and during UPT I know what I will get out to fly. That sounds appealing to me. I just dont know. What are your opinions on ROTC vs. Guard/Reserve for you guys that may have been AD and flying Reserve now? Recommend ROTC or Reserve/Guard to start out a AF Career?

Thanks- Wizard

[Guest terryrea]

Go Guard.

[Bergman]

Originally posted by wizardpilot:

What are your opinions on ROTC vs. Guard/Reserve for you guys that may have been AD and flying Reserve now? Recommend ROTC or Reserve/Guard to start out a AF Career?

I would recommend staying with ROTC. I know things are changing right now with regard to ROTC retaining cadets, but assuming you stay in to commissioning, there is a very good probability of getting a scholarship of some sort. Also, you are guaranteed a job when you graduate (again, this may be changing due to current force structure refinement...but in 3 years who knows what it'll be like). Lastly, you can almost always switch from AD to the ANG after your commitment is up.

Opinions will vary wildly on this subject, and ultimately it is up to what you want to do. Going ANG means finding another job (don't kid yourself into thinking you will get hired into a full time ANG job any time soon!) - so if being a civilian with a really cool part-time job sounds good, then go for that. If being full-time AF is what you want...then go AD.

[Guest lightning4eva]

Do both

ANG is a great experience, helps pay for school...put in for a scholarship then get out if they give you one. I got out of the ANG w/ 4 yrs 8 days. Got out 23 Sep 03, enlisted into AFROTC 25/26 Sep 2003. It was right when I got back from FT.

Now I'm gonna be an 0-1 w/4 (nice lil pay raise). Your ANG experienc will only help you in your rating, at FT, general knowledge....etc

FT will be much easier, drill is a joke. Also you learn so much just from being at your unit. Acronyms are easier...the pay aint bad. I got back from Tech school 25 Apr 00, got promoted to SRA on 12 Jun 00. Pick a job u like, short school (I was Command Post 1C3X1)

Reserve is pretty close to the same..but also you have to worry about being activated. My sophomore year I was activated for 11 month but I was lucky and was on ONE (noble eagle) orders at home station (Otis ANGB)

Hope this helps

[Guest AirGuardian]

If you go Guard and haven't become substantially in debt and paying major amounts of cash in either alimony, child support, currently married with non-working wife, gambling itch, drinking problem or whatever else that may put a hardship on your pay - Guard Bumming is a great deal.

Here's the catch for decent pay with little commitments other than flying. Finding a C-130 or Heavy Unit that has a very busy schedule. Most are what some may call busy, but - there is busy and there is the shaker and movers. Not only are they flying hundreds of hours a month, but they are GREAT mission sets. Counting right now, we have 6 out of 9 new pilots who are bumming and doing fine with NO other job... Several are married and two have children. Most have bought a house. So that should tell you that you can make ends meet. AD definitely has the edge for newbies regarding steady pay, insurance, on base privelages, but you go where they tell you to and so forth, and so on. But the flexibility of being a Guard Bum is monumental. Most wouldn't understand this unless they've been AD with all the rigamorou and were lucky to find themselves in a unit that supports their Guard Bums well. You take every trip you can, but hey it's flying and you're getting quality experience/hours! Bergman's right about not landing a full-time slot. Not likely, but we did have a guy get a full-time slot = a brand new pilot/1st Lt. Imagine being a 1st Lt Co-pilot and earning well over 65K a year and he'll be set for a decade no doubt, I say that loosely. Either way, it's what your priorities are in life. Godspeed in your decision!

[scoobs]

AirG how many hours are possible a month to as a bum on the C-17?I'm still a year away before I can apply.Hopefully I will get picked up by March ARB.

[Guest wizardpilot]

Hey AirGuardian. Thank you all for the responses! This is what my brain is thinking right now if I go guard...I will be a CFI in 2 weeks, and I hope (if everything goes right) to have 800-1000 Flight hours by the time I graduate from college. I talk to units well before I graduate, and get myself known. I apply, hopefully get picked up, go to UPT and so on. By the time I am "trained" and I'm off AD, go and find a airline gig as well as the Guard time. I would have the hours, and the airframe experience to do so. Do you know if this has worked out for you, or others you may associate with? I am just throwing out what I am thinking right now. haha, I'm mormon, so drinking, debts, gambling...etc (dont plan on getting married soon either) Do you think that is a pretty good plan? Thanks in advance!

[B-O-double-Z]

I will be a CFI in 2 weeks, and I hope (if everything goes right) to have 800-1000 Flight hours by the time I graduate from college

How many hours do you have now? It took me four years of flying full-time for the AD Air Force to accumulate my first 1000 hours. Are you going to be able to do this during college?

I talk to units well before I graduate, and get myself known. I apply, hopefully get picked up, go to UPT and so on. By the time I am "trained" and I'm off AD, go and find a airline gig as well as the Guard time. I would have the hours, and the airframe experience to do so.

I like your enthusiasm...but thought that a reality check might be in order here. It's doubtful that you'll be a contender for a decent airline job when you finish your initial training and seasoning with the Air Force Guard/Reserves. You are probably looking at five or six years of military flying (minimum!) before you'll be competetive for a major airline. The guys flying in Guard/Reserve heavy units are racking up a lot of hours right now because of the worldwide deployments. That may not be the case in five years.

I'm mormon, so drinking, debts, gambling...etc (dont plan on getting married soon either) Do you think that is a pretty good plan?

What's the point of being a single Air Force pilot if you aren't going blow all your money drinking and chasing ###### while you're still single (and maybe even a little after you're married)!

Anyway...I know many of the folks on this site are heavily biased toward the Guard/Reserves, but don't discount sticking with ROTC and joining the AD. You'll be commissioned, go to flight school, and have a real job with real pay and benefits. And after your commitment, you'll be a legitimate contender for any airline, and half-way there toward a lifetime retirement if you choose to make the AD a career.

Besides...how are you going to keep all those wives happy on part-time Guard pay?

[Guest SnakeT38]

Bozz............you bad boy!!!!!!! I never knew that stuff went on ;) ;) ;) ;)

[Guest wizardpilot]

B-O to the Double Z. Thanks for the post. I have over 250 hours right now(WOW, haha), havent added a page or 2 in the book yet. Yes, I am planning on instructing during college and I am finishing my freshman year right now. I'm 18 and have about 4 years to graduate, so I have a lot of time I can instruct. I have not discounted the ROTC, but things are popping up here and there that are out of my control with the ROTC, and it has somewhat cut the momentum that I had going into the program. I am just searching other ways I could commission. There are a lot of things going for me right now, and I am trying to figure out what may be the best route for me!

Part time Guard pay? yeah. drinkin and ###### chasing? minus the drinkin. 3 WIVES?!? hell no. haha

Yeah, snake! I also did not know drinking and ###### chasing went on with rated AF personel. This is an outrage...... ;)

Thanks guys

[B-O-double-Z]

Wizard,

You are a good sport young man. I have a feeling you'll do well at whatever you pursue.

Best of luck!

[Guest grsckoro]

B-O-Double-z

Regarding to your comment of taking four years of AD full-time flight training to gain your first 1000 hours.

As a CFI (CFII or MEI) you can rack up 800 hours a year if you are instructing at a decent flight school. My first year of instructing gained me 750 hours in my first year. Now, these are "instructing" hours, are long days sitting in the right seat doing, well not the most exciting maneuvers, but they are hours to count.

[Guest SnakeT38]

Originally posted by TUG:

B-O-Double-z

Regarding to your comment of taking four years of AD full-time flight training to gain your first 1000 hours.

As a CFI (CFII or MEI) you can rack up 800 hours a year if you are instructing at a decent flight school. My first year of instructing gained me 750 hours in my first year. Now, these are "instructing" hours, are long days sitting in the right seat doing, well not the most exciting maneuvers, but they are hours to count.

Your hours at ANY civilian school do not compare

with the "time" Bozz is referring too. They count

as hours but there is a HUGE difference. Actually I saw "energetic" T-38 FAIP's get 600 easily and

800 if they went x-country alot.

[B-O-double-Z]

TUG,

That's cool...

I didn't realize you could fly so much as a CFI. What kind of instructing do you do?

I own a couple little taildraggers ('76 Taylorcraft F-19 & '85 Taylorcraft F-21) and fly the sh!t out of them when I'm not doing my day job. I flew one to Nashville last weekend to see an old academy bud.

I started out flying in the Air Force without any civilian ratings--didn't even have a private. Did it all backward compared to most of you guys. I went back over the years and have gotten extensively involved in civilian aviation. Along the way I've picked up a Multi-Engine ATP, Commercial SE Land and Sea, Glider and a couple business jet type ratings (LR Jet & LR 45). I'd like to do some instructing but haven't gotten off my ass to get a CFI rating.

When I'm too old to do the military thing I'd love to try some bush flying in Alaska. I'd be interested to hear from anyone who's done some flying up there.

Take care.

[Guest grsckoro]

B-O-double-z

Bush flying in AK would be a great time! I had an old college instructor (ex AF Phantom and Hog driver) who did alot of AK bush flying and loved every min. of it. Some crazy stories too!

I have all my ratings to MEI so teach just about anything. Mainly teaching in C172's C177's and twin commanche's. That sounds like a blast flying all your taildraggers! I've flown a super decath, Cub and also had the opportunity to fly some acro in Christian Eagle (like a pitts). Taildraggers are a blast to fly and give you great stick and rudder skills!

Flight Instructing is fun, but can get old fast! If you mainly teach at a school that gets alot of studs going for their prvt it'll kill you sitting there in the right seat watching, correcting and helping them through everything 4-5 hours a day. It is very rewarding though, watching them progress to their solo and their ending cert.

I leave for OTS in Sept and will be flying C-17's for the Reserves. Really looking forward to military flying and becoming a student again!

Have a good one.

[ 17. April 2005, 23:00: Message edited by: TUG ]

[scoobs]

Tug are you with the unit out of McChord?

[Guest grsckoro]

Snake

How many hours do you have now? It took me four years of flying full-time for the AD Air Force to accumulate my first 1000 hours. Are you going to be able to do this during college?

Wizards isn't even done with college yet? So I don't think 38 flying would be relevant? I could be wrong, but that’s the way I read it and thought it was correct.

What type of hours are you talking about?

[ 17. April 2005, 23:04: Message edited by: TUG ]

[Guest AirGuardian]

Discussing what Bozz mentioned earlier regarding the 1000hrs in four years. Guaranteed it differs for many depending upon what route they take. Fighter guys have some of the most impressive flying in their careers, but are rather limited in time and distance on a normal routine basis. 1.0-2.0hrs or so normally in a fighter, vs bomber patterns, tanker runs, AWACs stints, Airlift range. Good thing is with the fighter guys its PIC from the get go! Single, multi, centerline thrust and non-ctr line thr, vs the heavies which always have multi engine/heavy, non-centerline, etc. mixed with co-pilot to first pilot(going away) to Aircraft Commander = PIC time. It takes time to upgrade and whatnot. Time is different and racked and stacked somewhat differently, and even the responsibilities are vastly different with ammunition/bombs vs carrying bodies, eggs, gas, injured personnel. Don't forget single seat responsibility action vs crew cockpit versatility as well. Alot of things go into hiring aspects if you are searching for the civilian sector. Good deal going AD and getting FAIP'd which most don't like, but your time is instructor time and most get nearly 2000hrs if not more when they depart a UPT base..., but then you can't separate for at least another 6 to 8 years anyway... :rolleyes:

Heavy guys rack it up as BOZZ said, especially with what's been going on these past few years. I was just Guard bumming as a 17 guy and racked up 160 hours in 2 months... but I never turn down a trip!!! As a technician now, I fly substantially less. But if we were to be activated, I'm sure we'd press the 125hr (and 150 if it came around again) a month max limit easily. Not really uncommon to see the Reserve crews get slammed and one of our guys talked to a crew which was at the 50hr mark at Day 6! They were hurt'n, but pressing forward like champions - they needed a break though...

So overall, hours are racked and stacked differently and things have changed a little since 911 with so many coming back to the line and being picky is still the "in thing" or not. We'll see and who cares really until you even qualify hours wise.

How does it go? Hey man, what airline do you want to fly for???

Answer: First one that calls bud, first one that calls...

[ 17. April 2005, 23:29: Message edited by: AirGuardian ]

[Guest Rainman A-10]

"Honor?! You've got to be sh!ttin' me. If I'm gonna die for a word it's gonna be a good one...like POONTANG!"

Bozz, you made me laugh out loud and your are, once again, correct. You need to call Zuke, he's still at Eielson and he's been doing lots of bush lunacy with his planes. He's working at Cope T.

Wizard, I'm not sure what you need to do to get your own planet but I do know that you seem to have the right attitude to become a pilot. You can take crap and you seem quite motivated. I suppose having lots of civilian time helps but I don't think it is required. I did my thing the same way Bozz did. I had never even been on a plane before I started going on recruiting visits in high school but I knew I wanted to be a pilot in the USAF when I was five years old.

I entered the flight screening program at Hondo with ZERO flight time. They washed out 12 of the 23 guys in my flight screening class. 10 of the 12 washouts had at least a private pilot license and the other two had been F-4 WSOs. All 12 had been talking crap when we first started. They weren't saying much as they packed their cars with their tails between their legs.

Just goes to show...

Looking good in the shower doesn't mean you can play worth a sh!t.

No one cares how much you can bench once the whistle blows.

Talk is cheap and some things only God can give you.

If you can keep score or time, it's a competition.

Hustle makes the big leagues.

1000 hours, if it is that same hour 1000 times, ain't gonna do much for you.

Simple fundamentals are the key to success...keep your shoulders square to the line of scrimmage , stay low, aim for a point three feet behind your man, keep your feet moving, live for the impact and PLAY TO THE WHISTLE!

Trust your mind and remain poised under pressure, especially when fatigued.

Good Luck.

[Guest AirGuardian]

Death B4 disssona! Poontang B4 everything else as Rainmaster indicated! Goes to show you what really makes the world go round.

And there you have it as it was for many of us, and still is in most cases...

"Master and the Apprentice"

[Guest SnakeT38]

Originally posted by TUG:

Snake

How many hours do you have now? It took me four years of flying full-time for the AD Air Force to accumulate my first 1000 hours. Are you going to be able to do this during college?

Wizards isn't even done with college yet? So I don't think 38 flying would be relevant? I could be wrong, but that’s the way I read it and thought it was correct.

What type of hours are you talking about?

TUG............not sure I understand what you are looking for. I came to the conclusion that in your post that I commented on somehow you were equating "instructor time" in the civilian world with some sort of time in the military.

Since 98, I have flown with more civilians THAT TRUELY think 1 hour instructing in a C-172 IS THE EQUIVALENT of ANYTHING you can do in the military.

Many ALSO THINK, that if they are CAPTAINS at small commuters...........they are qualified to be Captains on 777's. Some of the worst pilots we have now at AA got here on the "hire a buddy" program, we had more "washouts" than we have ever had. I have also flown with guys that have minimal education, once you leave the topic of "flying" some are severely challenged to continue talking..............motto........we lowered our standards WAAAAAAAYYYYYY to far.

My comment about time building in the USAF had to do with the fact that "energetic" FAIPS can really log the hours..........I even had over 1000 hours after 2 years because I flew ACE in the T-38 every chance I got when I wasn't, raising gear, reading maps, checklist and other important B-52 co-pilot craap (that is a joke).

As for my own time...........I haven't logged ANYTHING in a logbook EXCEPT the "little stuff" I flew when my kid was getting all her licenses.

I think USAF/USAFR is around 4000 hours......

I think around 13000-14000 in the airlines with

almost half of that in MD80/82/83, both seats.

[Guest grsckoro]

How it going Snake,

I agree there was some confusion. I read wizard’s statement: I will be a CFI in 2 weeks, and I hope (if everything goes right) to have 800-1000 Flight hours by the time I graduate from college.

And then B-O-Double-z's question and concern: How many hours do you have now? It took me four years of flying full-time for the AD Air Force to accumulate my first 1000 hours. Are you going to be able to do this during college?

I only thought they where referring to civi flight instruction hours? To relate military hours to civilian hours is stupid and I agree completely agree there is no comparison. Those guys that said 1hour of C172 instructing time is equal to anything you do in the military are bunch of fu*#en clowns. But, flight instructing in civilian world is also tougher than it looks and shouldn’t be looked down upon until you’ve tried it. I think every flight instructor will tell you it is a less than glamorous job with very little pay.

As for logging only your AF and Airline flights is your choice. I am taking it that you never flew in the civilian world before (correct me if I am wrong) the AF and the 1st plane you strapped into was the tweet. My hats go out to those guys and you as that isn't an easy 1st plane to fly. (I haven't flown the tweet, but going straight to learning in a jet is tough)

But here is a question: If you flew civilian before you flew for the AF why the hell wouldn't you log your time??? I think that would be the stupidest thing you could do? Since you have almost 20k hours, sure, there isn't any point for you log all you "little flight hours" but you still have log hours to keep current. Flying a MD80 doesn't keep you current in a simple 172.

This was just a communication error and we where both chatting about different subjects.

How's AA treating you these days? I have a good friend who's dad(x-Prowler pilot) is about to retire with them. He has enjoyed his 30 + year stay with AA, but hopes they will continue to recover. Have a good one!

Take Care!

[Guest SnakeT38]

When I said I hadn't logged any time what I meant was since I "got my job", AA keeps the totals for

each jet as does the AF..........when I needed to

stay current in little airplanes, I logged that

time. I don't plan ANY other flying jobs that

would require laboring through a logbook EVER AGAIN..AA goes down the tubes, I have some other ideas. I did not fly before UPT........I was the typical go to Hondo, get 15 hours or so and then on to other things.

[Bergman]

Originally posted by SnakeT38:

I think USAF/USAFR is around 4000 hours......

I think around 13000-14000 in the airlines with

almost half of that in MD80/82/83, both seats.

OH GREAT! Just what this forum needs is ANOTHER f*cking newbie...!

:D

[B-O-double-Z]

Rainman,

I heard that Zuke has gone "native" up there in Alaska. I heard he bought land and build a house way out in the boonies to retire to. I don't think I'd like to endure the winters there. I'd have to do the seasonal bush pilot thing.

Yeah...I figured you for an offensive lineman. My linebacker coach at the Zoo told me there are only two things that are true in life; Women are trouble...and guys who play on offense are pricks.

I'll second your call for fundemantals and throw in my plug for repetition, repetition, repetition...

You got to take a lot of snaps before you can consistantly see the keys.

Good stance. Concentrate.

Know their formation tendencies.

First step...read step. (Forget about what the tailback is doing. The fullback and guard will take you to the ball everytime.)

Second step...fly to the ball.

Get there with your feet under you. (and in a bad mood)

Explode through the hit. Wrap up.

After you knock him down...help him up.

[ 19. April 2005, 08:17: Message edited by: B-O-double-Z ]