ROTC to ANG/AFR

[Guest Brandy]

I am currently in ROTC and will be going to field training this summer and commissioning in 06. I was wondering if anyone knew what my options are as far as going ANG after commissioning or if thats even possible. Any input would help.

[Guest Rainman A-10]

Ask your ROTC commander. He'll give you better advice than you'll find around here.

[Gas Man]

Not sure about the AF ROTC, but my sister-in-law was Army ROTC and she was put in the Reserves right after graduation. She has to do 8 years in the Reserves instead of the normal 4 though. She just graduated a couple of weeks ago.

[Aurora85]

I'm in AFROTC right now, commissioning here in august when I grad and i'm headed into the the ANG directly..currently applying to many units for a flying slot. All FY05 guys had the option to do it.

[ 02. June 2005, 12:08: Message edited by: Aurora85 ]

[Aurora85]

well i'm living proof of it! ha..its no myth..it can happen..just not many people know about it.

[Guest Brandy]

I commission Dec 06 (Fiscal 07) so I wonder if I will have the option. Im a little apprehensive about asking the cadre because Im not sure what there reaction will be and if its negative that would suck...so I talked to an ANG recruiter who had no idea what I was talking about and then said that it wasnt possible and never was and then told me I would have to enlist...ummm...i dont think so. Well I definetly need to talk to a diffrent ANG guy. Thanks for all the input let me know if yall hear anything else.

[Guest terryrea]

Like Aurora85 and others said, it is possible.

Talk to another recruiter or at least someone else. My recruiter did not know as well, but one of the Majors did. It might just take talking to the right people (including your Cadre). I know when I was in ROTC, the Cadre were not real approachable concerning this topic.

[Guest Rainman A-10]

Originally posted by BrandyTexan:

I commission Dec 06 (Fiscal 07) so I wonder if I will have the option. Im a little apprehensive about asking the cadre because Im not sure what there reaction will be and if its negative that would suck...

It might suck worse if they find out you are trying to do an end run and they decide to teach you a lesson.

Be a man, ask the question.

[Aurora85]

Brandy,

My cadre has done nothing short of going out of their way to help me..at the end of the day they are still comissioning an officer and we are all on the same side. However, with that said..going into the ANG and trying to do things is a rough route..it is on your back to get a unit to sponsor you and you will do all of the work.

[Scooter14]

Relax, Brandy, he's actually right. Your cadre will not appreciate it if the first time they hear that BrandyTexan is looking to get an ANG commission is when the Guard unit calls your Det and says "Thanks for letting us take Brandy into our unit." Nobody likes to get the end run.

We're not saying you are going to do this. You did however say that you were apprehensive about talking to the cadre. I don't know Rainman personally, but at his advanced age I think he can speak from a higher ranking point of view. I personally don't think you need to be a man, but you do need to talk to the cadre before you activate your plan, or it could backfire in a big way.

As much as it sucks sometimes, you need your commander's support. This is not unique to ROTC. For me, leaving active duty was an unpopular thing to do in my last unit. Before I went ahead with my application, I explained my position to the people that mattered, so I had their full support. That made it easier on everyone, nobody was surprised, nobody had bad feelings, kumbaya.

[Guest TheBurt]

Brandy,

During the early 90's the Air Force was downsizing and basically let a bunch of us go to the guard. I was one of them, I was an ROTC scholarship recipient and was already commissioned with a pilot slot, the Air Force gave me the option of staying in another AFSC or finding a guard/reserve unit, I went to the guard. So yes, it can be done, but it depends on the circumstances and "needs of the Air Force". I hope this helps. Good luck.

[Guest AirGuardian]

Definitely dependent upon "The needs of the Air Force" as TheBurt said.

Here's the first kicker, FINDING A GUARD UNIT - especially now that applications from Brac listed Guard units in the system are flooding the safer units...

To your favor and I'll be blunt. Whether right or wrong(WRONG, unless scores were evenly based - not), some units have made the push to hire females outright. So being a self proclaimed female may not be just something to be strong and proud of. It's in your favor - so use it while you can. Numbers are still low, so the pressure to recruit the opposite is high. Better time than any, no excuses... go do what you want!

So far so good in our unit, our women flyers are very judgemental and I dare say it would be harder to sneak in on their turf despite some of the upper leaderships push for the numbers game.... Gotta cut the mustard in our case, so I endorse our unit's system - seen pressure on other units and what a mess.

For the rest of you grape smuggler banana hammock wearing MEN, find a unit any way you can!!! Goodluck!

[ 08. June 2005, 22:28: Message edited by: AirGuardian ]

[Guest Lightninbo]

GO GUARD...most everyone here at unt wishes they had... most active dudes don't know anything about guard till they cut their teeth on our stories here, then the regret sets in. We even have been able to convince a few of the navy guys that we have it good!

[Guest usaf918]

I am currently a senior in AFROTC, one semester away from categorizing/getting an AFSC. My question is this. I want to get my commission in hopes of achieving my goal of being a USAF Pilot. If I get a pilot slot is there a way to transfer to ANG or Reserves and keep that slot and continue on then get assigned to a unit or once I get a slot in AFROTC am I committed to active duty?

I want to fly AF and it's been my goal, but I am afraid that if I get a slot in AFROTC and then want to transfer to ANG or Reserves and I drop my slot and then have to recompete and when I go up for a board I'll be more likely to be passed over because I had my "chance" so to speak or if I just dropped AFROTC now to ensure I get into ANG/Reserves, I'd have to do OCS and AFROTC would have been a waste, especially since they'd see I did AFROTC, dropped and maybe they'd think I wasn't committed.

Bottom line, I am committed and want to fly USAF and I want to do it in ANG or Reserves. How can I do this at this stage?

[jcollins]

Why do you want to fly for the reserves now?? Being a college student you have no civilian career to fall back on. Go on active duty, do the pilot gig for a few years, get your steady paycheck and build your hours so that when you Palace Chase to the Guard you can have a civilian career rather than being a broke Guard bum.

[Guest usaf918]

I want to go guard/reserves because I have minimums for half a dozen regionals and let's say I stay AFROTC, get a slot this spring which I think is likely given my OM, go to my FCI and fail. Now I have to wait to get a waiver only to find out what goes wrong is unwaiverable and what now, am I stuck behind a desk for 4 years? I know regionals pays peanuts, but at least I'd be flying and yes it wouldn't be USAF (my dream) but at least it'd be flying which is my passion.

I guess you could say there are too many 'if's' and I want to know that I am going to fly after college. Should I really not want ANG or Reserves? If I did that in addition to regionals it wouldn't be that bad as far as pay and if I'm flying I don't think I'd care right now. If I knew there was no chance of failing the medical or if I did, not having to stay active duty, then I'd be going forward without a doubt, but I just want to fly.

Edited September 30, 2007 by usaf918

[amcflyboy]

I want to go guard/reserves because I have minimums for half a dozen regionals and let's say I stay AFROTC, get a slot this spring which I think is likely given my OM, go to my FCI and fail. Now I have to wait to get a waiver only to find out what goes wrong is unwaiverable and what now, am I stuck behind a desk for 4 years? I know regionals pays peanuts, but at least I'd be flying and yes it wouldn't be USAF (my dream) but at least it'd be flying which is my passion.

I guess you could say there are too many 'if's' and I want to know that I am going to fly after college. Should I really not want ANG or Reserves? If I did that in addition to regionals it wouldn't be that bad as far as pay and if I'm flying I don't think I'd care right now. If I knew there was no chance of failing the medical or if I did, not having to stay active duty, then I'd be going forward without a doubt, but I just want to fly.

I'm a Guard pilot, and a Guard "Bum" for that matter. I've seen guys flying for the regionals and flying for their unit. You have a bigger chance of going non-current in your unit's airframe, and then giving yourself a mental meltdown because you're burning the candle at both ends because of your civilian flying job. Your in a good position right now with AD. Keep going on the track your on, and then palace chase in a couple of years. My .02.

[brabus]

I've heard of guys only flying AD 1.5-2 yrs after UPT, then palace chasing to a guard/reserve unit. If you're really up on flying in the ANG/reserves, then that's the best way to do it at this point. However, I wouldn't be surprised if you decided AD flying was the way to go for at least a while. You're putting way too much thought into this whole FC1 thing, don't worry. Do exactly what amcflyboy said...I honestly think you'd be making a huge mistake by doing it any other way.

[hindsight2020]

Well, I disagree on some of the points.

What folks haven't mentioned here though is what exactly constitutes a "flying gig" in the AD. I'm here to tell you that it's not flying airplanes. The bulk of your job in the current AF is to swim through the swamp of "additional duty" jobs while you find a way to get to fly, and once you do, maxizime your time in a flying seat instead of riding passenger with the other 10 co-pilots in the jet. The only thing AD has going for it is the salary, which compared with a fresh dude at a Guard/Reserve, can't be matched on a dollar for dollar basis. But NOT the flying when compared to the RC. I can vouch for that, going on 3 months of, you guessed it, NOT flying, at the SCHOOLHOUSE for Christ Sake, sharing with my AD brethren the joys of chem gear training, getting treated like a freggin 5th grader over e-mails about who left the light at the popcorn machine on, who hasn't turned in their Self-aid Buddy care certificates yet, et al ad nauseum. Using UPT as a yardsitck for what flying is like in the AD is the biggest mistake one could make. I wouldn't mind dealing with office politics if my job was to fly airplanes as advertised, but when that's not even the case, forgive me for opting out. Diffrn' strokes...

People are also not painting the complete picture talking about Palace Chase. The process is a crapshoot. AFPC has the prerrogative to NOT let you off the hook, even if you are on the up and up with the gaining Reserve Component unit. So there is a lot to be said about that. You are in a much better position to search for units NOW, and forego the commitment. I'm telling you, if what you care about is to get to FLY for a living, the Reserves and Guard is where it's at. AD is NOT about flying for a living. Also, when people here throw "a couple of years" when talking about Palace Chase, they mean the bulk of your ADSC. If you PC within your first assignment, you're not far off ahead the off-the-street Guard baby in terms of employability in civi aviation, but the guard baby sure went through much less a$$pain to be in the same spot. So let's not be disingenuous about Palace Chase; it is a reactive measure, not a proactive one. Proactive is to have done your homework before you signed the dotted line versus getting the morale beat out of you in the AD and realizing you should have gone Guard and hence decided to PC. So consider the source, and that goes for my own bias too.

Lastly, the argument about regional airlines is also not being painted complete. I agree, pay at the regionals suck, but when you're a guard bum and the man day pot is running dry, you may have no choice but to work for a regional. I buy staying in the black working a regional would be highly questionable, but I want amcflyboy to expand as to why he feels it has such a predisposition to get you non-current at the unit. I haven't seen that so far. You can drop trips at the regional without much repercussion, and God knows one shouldn't feel bad about it, since they get what they pay for, so getting your 96 UTA/TP and 14 AT on the year shouldn't be a problem even working a regional. Now, what I don't have much sympathy for is the guys who decide to commute to their regional job. I understand if the wife has a good but non-replicable job and doesn't want to live in Memphis or "insert city your wife wouldn't want to get caught dead moving to", but other than that, man that's just dumb. If your unit is starving you, and you need the regional job cause you're a low-timer (for disclosure, I'm in that exact category as an off-the-street to UPT type), common sense tells you to live in domicile and commute to the Guard gig, not the other way around. But that's worst case; best case, you live at the unit and bum, and forego the regional. I just don't buy that one goes non-current at the unit by virtue of working a regional (provided you live in-domicile).

As to being a broke bum, point taken. But that's an opportunity cost one evaluates for oneself. If I wanted a paycheck right NOW I would have taken that depressing engineering job I was running away from in the first place by going Guard; but it wouldn't have done squat for my career advancement in aviation. So the fallback value of a civilian career is over-rated when assessing the "value" of being a broke young Guard baby. My CFII has more fallback value than 2 engineering degrees I haven't used going on 2 years since I left school, and I doubt they would get me squat job-wise in a decade when I would be 10 years+ non-experienced in the field, and the employer is going "WTF you want a job here for? we can't use you". Also, you won't be a 1LT at the unit forever. Once you make CAPT your minimum guarantee comes to 17-20K, that's straight up min running it, so you add 20K to any civi flying job, including first year pay at most regionals, and you can get a livable wage. Upgrade to Captain at the civi job, and now you have a decent wage combined with your guard boost (however much or little you work it/the unit can afford for you). In the same 5 years you're sucking sand in you ALO tour, out of the jet , going no-shit non-current, and NOT flying. My point is let's compare apples to apples, there are reasons for the pay disparities and they have more to do with personal choices than what mother blue tells you you should do career-wise.

Just some food for thought, in my experience I get AD peers at least two a week asking me "how does the Guard/Reserve work/can you hook a brother up?" and hardly folks the other way around. Man that's a lot of smart dudes who are depressingly behind the curve when it comes to having done their homework (after I advise them that as a new guy I couldn't hook my own self up if I wanted to LOL). Take my post for what it's worth (free advice) and use it to compare and contrast and come up with what works for you. Good luck brother.

[amcflyboy]

Ok, Hindsight does have a couple of points about commuting to your regional job vs commuting to your Guard job. HOWEVER, my unit is in a location where the nearest regional airline hub is 3 HOURS away. Most of the Guardsmen who do commute for the Guard job and not for the airline, always go non-current. By the way, the Guard is extremely rich with copilots too, so the argument of sitting passenger with not so much 10 other guys, but 5 other guys is not a good one. We are also at war right now, so mandays at all the Guard/Reserve units are running thin. You also run risk like everywhere else of planes breaking, the Guard/Reserve is no exception.

Plus with AD, you have a steady paycheck, and the fact of being given a deskjob, boo hoo hoo is all I've got to say. You can't be a crew dog your entire career, unless you WAN'T to fly for the airlines. If you take a desk job, then it really is expanding your horizons. You could learn something new. Yes you're a pilot, but you're an officer first. If you're on AD, are you getting a steady paycheck? Yes. Are you getting health care? Yes. Do you have the opportunity to pay your bills and not worry about money? Yes, unless you blow your money at the strip clubs. It's a $hitty situation on both sides of the coin. Pick the lesser of the two evils.

Me personally, I wouldn't mind pulling my hair out due to boredom and going non-current on AD, rather than pulling my hair out due to myself going section 8 because I'm barely making ends meet, and then going non-current. I LOVE flying, but I have bigger priorities.

What I'm saying is, Hindsight has good points, and others have noted that I have good ones(not trying to sound arrogant here). Take it for what it's worth. I would personally bite the bullet, and suck it up for a couple of years on AD, and then role the dice for Palace Chasing. I've seen weird things happen all the time. I've been in for 10 years(prior enlisted), and have seen the "brass" talk out of both sides of their mouths. It's a crap shoot on both sides of the playing field (Guard vs AD)

Good luck dude.

Edited October 2, 2007 by amcflyboy

[Guest usaf918]

So let's say that I finish AFROTC, get a pilot slot, pass the FCI and am lined up to go to UPT. What then? I will have a 4 year commitment until UPT is complete and it's 10. As you saw I have the mins for regionals now, is it possible (also is it a good idea) to finish up with that and then palace chase? Bottom line, I do not care about pay right now. I am willing to work my way up the ladder salary wise and if I have to spend time in the right seat at a regional I will. I dread getting a desk job and as hindsight said, sitting around on AD is boring as heck and not something I don't want to do.

What should I do now? I am a little confused as to what my path would be if I finished AFROTC and completed UPT. Can I go ANG? Is that something that is impossible or unlikely?

What would you all say would be the best path for me now provided I don't care about money and just want to fly?

[hindsight2020]

Well, by no means I suggested one shouldn't care about the pay situation. I can vouch for how uncomfortable the thought of not having a guaranteed paycheck can be. That said, it is part of the choices one makes as a low-time guy. My heart truly goes out to the full civi types in aviation. One has to recognize just how much more favorable the pay situation is for a Guard dude, having at least SOME re-assurance that there is some way to legitimately supplement one's income while working for a regional if the need would arise to do work there (as opposed to having been born with a trust fund; not because I wouldn't take advantage of it myself if I was in such position, but because it is disingenuous to offer it up to the rest of us non-lucky f$cks as a way to making ends meet).

It is pretty clear by your post that you goal is to make a living out of flying professionally. That being the case I am here to tell you that you will NOT enjoy the AD, and really are better off pursuing the Guard/Reserves. I was just having this discussion with a ACIQ guy who just got back from an ALO tour. He concedes that no way in hell he would have felt it was a good deal taking 3 years off the cockpit if he intended to shoot for airline work, and he's pretty clear (as of right now anyways) that he'll prob be a lifer, and getting yanked out of the cockpit again will proably not disuade him from finishing his 20. The point with that tale is that you have to assess what your career direction is, in your case I would STRONGLY recommend you do NOT sign that AFROTC categorization commitment, and instead pursue the Guard option.

You will take a paycut from your AD 1LT types when you get back to the unit as a bum, but it doesn't mean you'll necessarily starve. As I mentioned in my previous post, worse case you have to pursue a regional airline and have to make tough decisions in terms of where to relocate to (living in domicile or living at the Guard unit) in order to make working at the regional worththile (hint: live on domicile if you can, I'm telling ya you can't afford to commute to a regional gig, Guard baby or full up civi alike). Best case, you could successfully bum (unit dependent, some are rich on mandays some not, some have other jobs the AD could give you and put you on orders for a while, some not, there's tons of iterations to bumming) to stay afloat until you can either get offered an ART job (unlikely but who knows) or in conjunction with a regional gig where u can make a comfortable living until you can get enough TPIC to make it to your preferred major. Bullet-proof plan? Hardly. BUT, it's a flying job and lifestyle, and that has a non-economic value as we previously discussed. All in all, I respect and agree that there is peace of mind in making an AD paycheck versus slugging it out as a Guard crew dog, but you're flying for a living at the end of the day in the latter, so to each their own.

You also have to understand that life is not fair, there is a point where this career gets priced out for some folks. You are in your mid 30s with a family, brother you're gonna make your family go thru hell if you intend to live off the bottom pay scales of the pilot profession. For some people it became just too late. Be glad you'll be barely off college, where your expenses and family commitments allow you the flexibilty to find creative ways around regional scale FO pay, being a Guard/Reserve bubba one of the really good chips to hold, heck best-case it might allow you to forego the regionals completely. Good luck in your decision, the application process and competition sucks, the wait sucks, the not making that great steady AD paycheck sucks too, but in the end, it was the best decision career wise I could have ever made and I'm not concerned about the 3 years it took me to get in.

[amcflyboy]

Like he said, you're going to have to interview at each individual unit, and then you are NOT guaranteed a slot. Most units will only hire one guy a year, plus they only interview once a year. When I was selected, my unit took 3 guys, but this was back in 2002, and that was the last time something like that ever happened.

If you don't care about pay, then by all means seize the day. When you get selected, you still have to go through the mandatory wait time of a couple of months to almost a year for the paperwork to process. If you don't sign the ROTC commitment, then you HAVE to go to AMS/OTS, period. Then wait another good 3-6 months for your UPT assignment. The Guard Bureau is littered with slugs. I don't know how it works in the Reserve world.

Hindsight, how many people do you know have gone on ALO tours? Not many I would assume. I have a lot of friends/acquaintances on AD ranging from 1LT to Major who said that AD is the best decision they have made yet, and none of them have or will do ALO tours. ALO tours usually go to people who's bases just want to get rid of them for a couple of years because they pissed off the Squadron CC or whatever. It sounds like you don't know too many people who are happy with AD. I guess that's just how the dice is rolled in meeting people.

USAF, it sounds like you've got some sole searching to do. Yes, you do have a tough decision. Just be ready for the consequences seeing as how you haven't really tasted AD yet. You get a taste of it while at UPT. Again I'm going to stress it's all how YOU make of it, and not what other people think of it. It sounds like your basing your decision on what others think. Yes you do run risk of being looked at as a quitter if you go before a Guard/Reserve UPT board with the board having full knowledge of you quitting ROTC. They MAY think that your looking for the easy way out of things. I sat on a UPT hiring board last year. The board has pre-conceived notions of you before you even walk in because they see your resume and all the rest of your paperwork. That's just the way things go.

[brabus]

I'm not arguing against anything Hind said, he obviously has more knowledge on the subject than I do. However, from what I've read, been told by friends, etc., the guard is not a flying club in the way you wish it was. In some ways it is a flying club compared to AD, but you have to to think about some big things:

1) You can't expect to just find a unit that will hire you for UPT in a short time frame. It could very well be SEVERAL years before you find the right unit that's willing to hire you. Yes, you could get lucky and find one w/in a year of graduation, but pretty unlikely. I'm not saying you are guaranteed to have a tough time finding a unit, but it would be smart to plan on it taking a couple years to really get in w/ the unit, hired, med stuff done, blah blah. Then maybe in 3 years you go to UPT.

2) It's not steady flying all the time. Every unit is different. Some may fly more, but don't be surprised to only fly a few times a month at points, same as AD. You just never know...that crap is all over, not just in AD. Not to mention kind of the point of the guard is flying a few times a month...full time positions are very rare.

3) While you may do a few years out of the cockpit on AD, you will probably go back. Yes it sucks/will suck to not fly for a few years, but chances are you are not screwed out of flying the remainder of your career.

Bottom line: The grass is always greener on the other side. If you really have a desire to fly civilian and military, then go for the guard, but if you have your heart set on military flying, then not in my opinion, but based on the words of several crusty BTDT guys, start in AD and then move on later if that's what you decide down the road. Just remember, you have a ticket to UPT now, if you don't take it, you probably just added several years onto your chance to go, at the minimum. Maybe that's worth it to you, maybe it's not. The guard is not an easy ticket to a military flying club...it'll take a lot of time and effort to get to UPT through that route (in addition to what you've already done), so to me, that's a big reason to really think about this whole thing.

[amcflyboy]

I'm not arguing against anything Hind said, he obviously has more knowledge on the subject than I do. However, from what I've read, been told by friends, etc., the guard is not a flying club in the way you wish it was. In some ways it is a flying club compared to AD, but you have to to think about some big things:

1) You can't expect to just find a unit that will hire you for UPT in a short time frame. It could very well be SEVERAL years before you find the right unit that's willing to hire you. Yes, you could get lucky and find one w/in a year of graduation, but pretty unlikely. I'm not saying you are guaranteed to have a tough time finding a unit, but it would be smart to plan on it taking a couple years to really get in w/ the unit, hired, med stuff done, blah blah. Then maybe in 3 years you go to UPT.

2) It's not steady flying all the time. Every unit is different. Some may fly more, but don't be surprised to only fly a few times a month at points, same as AD. You just never know...that crap is all over, not just in AD. Not to mention kind of the point of the guard is flying a few times a month...full time positions are very rare.

3) While you may do a few years out of the cockpit on AD, you will probably go back. Yes it sucks/will suck to not fly for a few years, but chances are you are not screwed out of flying the remainder of your career.

Bottom line: The grass is always greener on the other side. If you really have a desire to fly civilian and military, then go for the guard, but if you have your heart set on military flying, then not in my opinion, but based on the words of several crusty BTDT guys, start in AD and then move on later if that's what you decide down the road. Just remember, you have a ticket to UPT now, if you don't take it, you probably just added several years onto your chance to go, at the minimum. Maybe that's worth it to you, maybe it's not. The guard is not an easy ticket to a military flying club...it'll take a lot of time and effort to get to UPT through that route (in addition to what you've already done), so to me, that's a big reason to really think about this whole thing.

Bingo!! Thank you Brabus, you summed it all up!

Especially the fact that the Guard is NOT a flying club, and that it could very well take a LONG time for you to find a unit and/or get into a unit. 'Nuff said. It took me a couple of years to find a unit as well, which I failed to meniton in my previous post.