Army (Warrant Officer) to ANG transfer

[Guest StephenHarper1]

I am trying to find out if a 35-year-old 2Lt transferring from the Army National Guard to the Air Guard needs to obtain an age waiver? I was told that the Air Force/Air Guard re-commissions you even if you are transferring with the same rank, in this case a 2Lt. I am also wondering what the governing NGB reg. is.

Thanks

Stephen

[Scooter14]

I don't have a bead on a reg, but I suspect it would be a 36 seried personnel AFI in the AF. Since you are already commissioned, it should be a transfer of that commission to the new service. WO's are the ones that run into problems going to the AF. I know a Navy LCDR who transferred to the ANG and he was 40. They made him a Major no problem. He also went through FWQ at Vance. I know for a fact there is no age limit there.

[Guest jriggoMOANG]

If I were to get a helo slot with the MO Army Guard and wne through flight training, how difficuly is it and what would the procedure be for getting transfered to an ANG unit for a fixed wing slot?

[Guest Bullmastiff]

Go to Kiowapilots.com or hawkdriver.com for the latest gouge on ARMY WOFT

At a later time you could possibly fly fixed wing for the Army Reserves or Army Guard. Joining ANG, will require the same process as anybody else, except you dont have to worry about age requirements for UPT, only age requirements for OTS

[Guest drelyn8]

Another qwesome site is aptap.org. iIt is the top site out there regarding transitioning to the airlines or an intersevice transfer.

I went the Army route (Guard) and then flew with a regional airline full time. I am now just finishing up with all the 130 training.

I really enjoyed the Army flying, but go straight for the AF if that is your goal. It will better your AF career from the get go.

And in the process, don't expect anyone (administratively) in the Af to have a friggin clue how to help you out.

[Guest doorknob]

Are you trying to get a flying job, or just want out of the hell that is the Army? I got out of the Army as a 1LT and used my GI Bill to pay for a part 141 university flying program. I was strapped for cash, so I joined the local Army Guard unit, I quickly realized I need to get out of the army, I hated it. On a whim, I applyed to an Air Guard unit in my state, for Pilot/Nav, they offered me a Nav job and I took it, I was 28. Being a Nav kind of sucks compared to pilot, but they way I look at it, it beats the hell out of anything I could be doing in the Army. Most units are hard up for Navs, so if you have any civilian flight training, I'm sure they will give you a job right away. I even made CPT right on time. So I guess the short answer is, go for it, if they need people they will take you, give you an age waiver, and you will keep your army rank. I'm in Nav school right now with a guy that did the same thing as me, got out of the army, and crossed into the blue. It's way better over here. Good Luck

[Guest cavpilot58d]

I'm currently serving in Iraq as an OH-58D Kiowa Warrior helicopter pilot in the Army, but I want to join the ANG upon completion of my Army committment.

I currently have over 1100 hours, over 900 combat hours, and will pursue my fixed-wing PPL when I redeploy. I'm a Captain with a BS in Mech. Eng., and I know I wouldn't have any problems passing any tests or meeting any requirements.

Except.... I will be 30 when I can get out of the Army. I've read about the < 30 years old requirement and understand there MIGHT be waivers available. Given my aviation/combat experience and service to this country, what are my chances of getting an age waiver. Or do I even need an age waiver? I've also been told that Army Flight School counts as a 'UPT' and that flying in the Air Force would only require a 'transition,' thus, no age restriction...anybody know about this distinction?

Does anyone know if I can begin the process of applying to the ANG before I formally leave the Army to speed the process? We're only talking a matter of months that I'll be into my 30th B-day.

I've been told that Active Duty AF will "buy out" an Army Aviation committment - any chance ANG would do the same in my last year to avoid the age problem?

I'm from Portland, OR and want to joing the F-15 Squadron that is there. Does being from the local community help the application process as a sign of stability and a committment to stay with the unit?

I really appreciate any thoughts and advice on this subject.

Thank you all for your outstanding service to this great country!

[Guest Oface]

Cav,

I have met plenty of Army flyers who have come over and joined the Air Guard and only had to go through fixed wing qual. However, I know another dude, flew apaches, who got out and went through all of UPT in order to get the experience he felt he was lacking (his words, not mine). I do not believe that age will be a factor considering you are already rated and commisioned, however, I am not looking at the regs and there are others who could answer this positively for you...look up Airguardian or post this same question over in the Guard/Reserve forum and someone will give you a straight answer. With your experience, I believe you will have a good shot getting a slot somewhere in the Guard, however waiting on a slot at Portland might be tough (unless you know somebody). Your best bet in the Guard is to get some face-time with the unit, and to send out applications to many units. Good luck.

[Guest rotorhead]

You are already commissioned. No OTS applies, so no OTS age restrictions apply.

You are a military rated aviator. No UPT age restrictions apply.

These are AD USAF answers...ARC should parallel.

[alwyn2d]

Active Duty AF would be pretty much be out of the question. That would require an interservice transfer and the requirements are very restrictive. Check out the AF web site for the details.

https://www.afpc.randolph.af.mil/specfly/Tr...er/interser.htm. You may have to cut and paste this site.

Your best bet would be the AF Guard/Reserves as you stated. Plently of ex-Army flyers that have seen the light and made the transition. In order to fly in the AF, you need not wear 2 piece flight suits or war paint :). If you're going to fly, at least look like a pilot for crying out loud.

Seems like the Army is a good training ground for the AF. And remember the AF is rich in History, Aviation bonuses (active duty only), Per Diem and Crew Rest.

[Guest SILVER BRITCHES]

Thanks to those that have provided Army pilots with information about transitioning to the ANG.

Here’s my situation: CPT,AH-64D, active Army, about 800 total hrs, 400 combat, and 80 SE FW, BS, in Iraq for yr #2, out of the Army next May at age 29, moving back to the Southeast, and I like to drink a lot of beer. I’ve been researching every ANG and AFR unit in the area and plan on visiting to see who has openings. I’ll fly any aircraft and in any unit that will take me, I just want to do a lot of flying. With that, here’s what I’m trying to find out.

1. Is there a single source to find out who needs pilots? Most unit web sites I’m visiting don’t display openings and every recruiter I email tells me that I have to submit a packet for UPT, take the AFOQT, go to a board, etc., which according to other postings I’ve read isn’t the case.

2. Who is the best person to talk to at the Air Wing about getting in?

3. How is the job outlook? Are there any locations/airframes that have a need?

4. Will most places blow me off because I’m prior Army not AF?

5. If anyone has done this, how has your experience been?

Thanks for all the help!

[Scooter14]

1 - No

2 - The DO, or Ops Officer at the flying squadron. Some have a POC for pilot hiring, they'll point you in the right direction.

3 - Depends on the unit

4 - Nope

5 - I haven't done it, but there are 4 folks in my unit who have gone rotary-fixed wing.

There is no age limit since you are commissioned, which helps the unit out.

Do a search on this board for FWQ or Fixed Wing Qual. That is the name of the program that takes rotary guys like you and turns them into AF fixed wing bubbas. It's mostly a Guard/Reserve thing, which sounds like what you want. Most guys I know were heavy guys, but some fighter units participate as well, all depends on what you wanna do.

The course itself is about 10 months long at Vance AFB, Enid, OK. You get a set of AF wings before you go, so you're not a UPT Student, but the syllabus is similar. You don't have to put up with the same haze as the run of the mill stud.

Lots of guys on this board have way more info. They'll weigh in shortly, but in the mean time use the search and see what you can dig up. Keep posting if you have further ?s and good luck.

[Guest rotorhead]

Search for some of my posts. If you want to continue flingwinging, there are several HH-60G ANG and AFRES units, including Patrick AFB FL (AFRES), Davis Monthan AFB AZ (AFRES), Anchorage AK (ANG), Moffett FAF CA (ANG), and Gabreski ANGB NY (ANG). Good folks, lots of flying, great aircraft, and newer ones on the horizon.

No AFOQT reqd. No UPT reqd. No age restriction. Fixed wing qual reqd if you stiff wing.

[Perch]

Hi, I'm am currently a non-rated crew member in an Army Guard UH-60 unit in Ohio. I will ETS in September and I have one deployment under my belt. When I start applying to ANG units for UPT slots (hopefully within the next year when I graduate) will the fact that I have some military flight experience (even if it was in a blackhawk) benefit me in any way? And also is the fact that I know what it is like to deploy of any benefit to me? Right now I have a 3.3 GPA in Mechanical Engineering and I would like to start applying soon. I'll be taking the AFOQT and TBAS within the next 3 months or so. Any opinions or comments are welcome, as I'm sure there will plenty of sarcastic responses! Thanks everyone.

[Guest dayswhore@ang.com]

No Sarcasm here, just good help. The reason some of the old timers chime back SEARCH when they see questions like this, is that this very question has been asked many times. Some of the answers are fantastic, they are long and insightful. After the same guy has written war and peace 5 times in response to the same question, it is logical to say, hey, I have already answered this, go search for it. That isn't sarcasm, it smart. Why invent the wheel again. While you are searching, you will find answers to questions you didn't even know you had. You are not the first guy to want to go to UPT after an enlisted career, good on all yall. The advice you will see is go and search, then if something went un answered or it generated another question, then fire away. The "What are my chances" forum and "Pilot selection process" forum should yield multiple hits from a key word search "chances", " a few questions", UPT selection.

Having said that, your exposure to deployments and fling wing op's won't hurt you, it may or may not help you, it all depends on timing. Every unit seems to have a slightly different culture and mindset when selecting, some almost always select E's from the unit, some 50/50, some mostly off the street. Again, follow the advice in the threads your search generates. "Rushing the squadron" is a good thread too.

I'm not sure if you were wanting to pick a fight or not. By referencing the sarcastic responses, it seems like you expected it, which means you've seen these questions before, and therefore may be trolling, I hope not. I have learned a bunch about the pilot selection process even though it really doesn't pertain to me personally, I am way too old. But I have young enlisted guys working for me who are potential players and knowing the process makes me valuable to them. I would hate to see this valuable resource get diluted due to trolling.

If flying is your dream, get started. Search like hell then humbly focus on what you don't understand and ask it. You have some serious horsepower on this board, use it. Wisely.

Peace!

[MT near]

I dont think any of your experiances or circumstances will hurt you. Being prior enlisted and in a responsible position is worth quite a bit. Your deployments show you are accountable and you can perfom under stresses.

With what backround you have posted it looks like you can be a top candidate but there are still somethings to do. Get the AFOQT and TBAS done and get your PCSM scores. I sugest then finding some units or airframes you would like to focus on flying. With that in mind, find the units contacts and try to schedule a visit to the flying squadron. Some times these contacts are recruiters, but I highly suggest calling the squadron directly and talking to someone who is a rated flyer or deals directly with them. Find a good time for both of you (most likely a drill weekend) and go visit. The best advice anyone will give you is to be yourself. Dont be cocky, too talkative, not too quiet or whiney. Just DONT BE A DOUSCH BAG!!! If ya have any more things let us know....but do a search first...great answers laying around!!

[Guest skyjumper03]

Hi all-

I've searched the threads and found some tid-bits (hard to get Vipers, 144FW is hard to get into, long waits for UPT?, etc.).

I'll save everyone the story, but basic stats are that I'm a USMA grad w/1 year left until I ETS. I'm an O-3 in the Infantry, OIF exp as a platoon leader, Ranger school, etc. I'm looking at moving back to CA when I ETS and the 144FW in Fresno has F-16s and if I have the option, that's what I'd like to fly (I figure they are a bit faster than a M-1114 or Stryker). I've begun searching the basic stuff, but the info that is most pertinent is: (1) will I be able to keep my rank when I transfer over, (2) what is the realistic (if there is one) timeline from starting all training on temp. AD to actually entering ANG (the part where you're actually on a weekends only timeline), (3) does any of my Army exp. help get slots, and (4) is it probable to exit active army service and slip right into active ANG status? I'm looking at attending school for my MBA when I ETS, but I can defer that for a year or two if I get picked up for a F-16 slot.

I've contact recruiters for both Navy and AF, but still waiting to hear back from them. I figure I had better start early, seeing some of the wait times for people here. Also, how often are FWs or Individual Augmentees called up in the AF?

Thanks

Chris

P.S. I was searching for the threads discussing switching from Army to AF ... if you are one of the ex-Army guys, please PM me. Thanks!

Edited March 25, 2007 by skyjumper03

[pirate]

I did an interservice transfer Army (TC) to AFRes and went to UPT for HCs.

1. You keep your rank. The regs dictate that you transfer with your current rank.

2. The guard has a long lead time before starting training (2yrs or so). After starting training you have about 2-2.5 yrs before your finished and go to traditions reserve (TR) status. TRs fly a lot more than 1 weekend a month. I can't speak for -16s but we do 1 weekend a month plus 3-4 additions flights month.

3. Army exp. doesn't hurt as far as selection goes. It will depend person to person if it helps or not.

The requirements for UPT are 1. a commission 2. a flight physical 3. a secret clearance 4. a PPL (not sure if this changed).

When I went to meet with units about UPT I had all three. I "sold myself" as a guy who could go to UPT immediately after selection. This worked well with reserve units and after the board I was at UPT in 2 months (6 months after leaving the Army). With the guard this may not help as much because they have such a long lead time.

You may run into 2 problems. 1. you must start UPT prior to 30 2. You can't have more than 5yrs commissioned service. The commissioned service starts when you raise your hand and does ever stop. If you go into the IRR the clock keeps ticking. You can still go you just have to get an exception to policy. The AF is a lot like the Army the more work you are for someone the less of a chance you have of getting selected. So you may want to push to start UPT prior to the 5 yr mark.

4. Active Guard slots are very much coveted and there is almost no chance of rolling from outside the unit directly into one. With that said a lot of guys get by on bumming at least on the heavy side.

Hope this helps.

PM if you need more.

[GreasySideUp]

Start applying yesterday. Get your BAT and AFOQT done immediately. Get on the phone and call the unit directly and ask to talk to a pilot on the board. The hiring season started a month ago and will run till ~ September but many units only hire once every couple of years. Not sure where Fresno sits with their board timing but they definately do like the prior service. Ditto with pretty much every unit. The Marines should give you time off to interview (Don't think it is required but I've seen active duty dudes at every interview I went on) Also don't limit yourself to just one unit, spread the eggs out and you'll have a much better shot. Use some of that leave you have saved up and try to visit the units you are applying to. Face time is huge in the hiring process and gives a definate leg up over the others. The 2 year Gard timeline is pusing it a little, The prior service (AF) Captain we last hired was in UPT in around two months after the interview and the non prior was in AMS 5 mos later and UPT around the 9 month point. Having been commissioned with a clearance is huge as Pirate mentioned.

As a Viper driver you'll never be on weekends only, minimum is 8 sorties a month for an inexperienced guy(<500hrs) and then 6 sorties there after. You'll get a little over a year of full time seasoning days when you get back from UPT/RTU and then plan 6-9 days a month absolute minimum. If you want to be at all effective in the jet as a young dude you'll probably spend a few more days than that every month. Plan on a little under 4 years of full time work from the day you leave for UPT until you can go part time, most guys are pushed out kicking and screaming rather than willingly leaving, wanting just a little more experience before being shown the door. Thankfully many units are able to accomadate.

Good luck, The job is absolutely incradible. I know several priors now in the cockpit so it is definately possible.

-j

`

Edited March 26, 2007 by GreasySideUp

[Guest skyjumper03]

Hey guys, thanks for all of the info. I'm still actively looking into it. As soon as I finish my GMATs I'm taking the AFOQT and then the TBAS. I'm taking all of your comments to heart. Basically, I'm weighing how much I want to work the 6 - 8 (business) and make $$ to how much I want to have fun and continue service. I'll keep you updated if you want, and will always take feedback and constructive criticism.

As for the Army Guard, it's generally a similar commitment to those in leadership positions, which is why I was leaning to the ANG/AF Reserves. Not to mention that I have an even greater chance of being gobbled up as a IRR guy if I don't find a job.

As for another airframe, I wasn't going to do it for the money, but for the fun and excitement. I could join the Army Guard and fly (which many be my next backup ... but 3 month deployments in AF conditions are better than 18 month ones in Army ones ... and I spent a minute at KRAB in Iraq, so I got to see how they treat you guys deployed) if I just wanted pilot time. I know I should search (and I will), but is the AF Reserve commitment comparable to the ANG? It sucks when your head tells you what you should do, but the heart and the gut are still young and are tugging the other way.

[Guest pilotwannab]

I am currently considering my options before I go applying to guard units for fixed wing slots. I would eventually like to end up at a tanker/cargo air guard unit somewhere, but also would like to experience some combat as a helo pilot if I can. I am thinking about trying to go for an army guard helo slot but there are a few questions I have as far as being in the army and then going back to the air force to fly.

1) If I am a warrant officer in the army and rated to fly rotor, would I apply for UPT boards or as a rated officer?

2) When applying to air guard units, would I still need to be under the age limit of 30 for UPT or since I would be rated would that not matter?

3) How would an air guard unit look at someone with army helo experience? Would this help or hinder the application process?

I have searched the forum a few times over and not really found specific answers to these questions. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!!!

[pawnman]

You'd still need to do a full commissioning program, like OTS or ROTC. We had a guy in my OTS class who flew Blackhawks for the Army. Still had to do all of OTS, still had to go to UPT. It might give you a leg up having been through Army pilot training, but there's no shortcuts there.

[Guest DerkaDerka]

The reason I asked these questions was because I originally thought that warrant officers were not commissioned officers, but then when I was looking into it, I found information that stated otherwise. I found on Wikipedia (I know its not the most credible source) and also on the Armys recruiting webpage the following information:

Warrant Officer 1 - Appointed by warrant from the Secretary of the Army.

Chief Warrant Officer 2 - CWO2s become commissioned officers by the President of the United States.

So it says they become "commissioned officers" at the 2nd grade. I also found on a history of warrant officers page the following information:

The Defense Authorizations Act for Fiscal Year 1986 amended Title 10 of the United States Code (U.S.C.) to provide that Army Chief Warrant Officers shall be appointed by Commission. The primary purpose of the legislation was to equalize appointment procedures among the services. Chief Warrant Officers of the Navy, Marine Corps, and Coast Guard had been commissioned for many years. Contrary to popular belief, the commissioning legislation was not a TWOS recommendation but a separate Army proposal. Further clarification of the role of an Army Warrant Officer, including the commissioned aspect, is found in FM 22-100.

"Warrant Officers are highly specialized, single-track specialty officers who receive their authority from the Secretary of the Army upon their initial appointment. However, Title 10 U.S.C. authorizes the commissioning of Warrant Officers (WO1) upon promotion to chief Warrant Officer (CW2). These commissioned Warrant Officers are direct representatives of the president of the United States. They derive their authority from the same source as commissioned officers but remain specialists, in contrast to commissioned officers, who are generalists. Warrant Officers can and do command detachments, units, activities, and vessels as well as lead, coach, train, and counsel subordinates. As leaders and technical experts, they provide valuable skills, guidance, and expertise to commanders and organizations in their particular field." (Para A-3, Field Manual 22-100)

If this is true and warrant officers of the 2nd grade and beyond are considered commissioned officers, then why do they have to go through a commissioning program if they apply for an officer slot?

Edited July 2, 2007 by DerkaDerka

[alwyn2d]

1) If I am a warrant officer in the army and rated to fly rotor, would I apply for UPT boards or as a rated officer?

Yes. If you wish to fly AF helos, you need not go thru SUPT once competing your AF commissioning source (AMS or OTS). Commitment time is less as well. If you attend SUPT for a fixed wing assignment, your commitment is 10 years.

2) When applying to air guard units, would I still need to be under the age limit of 30 for UPT or since I would be rated would that not matter?

No. If you're an rated Warrant Officer aviator the max age is 34. If not, 30 without waivers. The age of 34 is based on the max age of attending OTS for AF active duty/AF Reserves. AF Guard may be different since they have their own Officer commissioning program, AMS.

3) How would an air guard unit look at someone with army helo experience? Would this help or hinder the application process?

Great. There are thousands of ex Army pilots that made the decision to aim higher vs lower.

One of the reasons why the AF does not recognize the commissioned Warrant Officer rank is because the AF does not have any Warrant Officers in their ranks. The last appointed AF Warrant Officer was in 1959. The last AF Warrant retired in 1992 after being selected for CW5 in the reserves. He never pinned it on.

Do remember the AF is the most selective service in selecting pilot applicants. They turn down applicants with Master degees on many ocassions. Where as the Army will select applicants with a GED and a few college credits. The AF Guard/Res have their way of doing things but their selection standards are higher than the Army's.

[Guest CavGuy]

DO NOT get the Army stink on you. It doesn't come off easily. I have it on me and it causes doors to be slammed in my face. I finally got some combat time and my respect quotient went up a little bit. But if at all possible, go straight to the USAF and avoid the green aircraft. The Apache is a kick in the pants to fly in Iraq where you can stick that big gun right up the bad guy's nose and pull the trigger. But in the states, you spend a lot of time hovering in the trees waiting for a critical component to fail. (I've got my share of single-engine Apache time) It's a great gig if that is your thing, but I've planned on wearing blue all my life. It's time for me to make the transition. Good Luck and Scouts Out!

Edited October 24, 2007 by CavGuy