Graduate School and the ANG

[Guest PalmettoGuy]

Hey ya'll,

Has anyone heard of or known anyone to go to graduate school while flying part time in the ANG (specifically a fighter unit and a technical degree). If so, did they get an assistantship or fellowship or financial aid for grad school?

I'll be graduating in May with a B.S. in Chemical Engineering and would like to pursue a degree in Biochemistry, but would also like to fly for the ANG. However, a Ph.D before UPT would probebly be out of the question due to the fact that I turn 24 that June after graduation. I am afraid that after UPT/RTU/Mission Qual and flying part time, it would be hard for me to get into a grad school due to having to miss time for staying current.

Thanks ya'll

[hindsight2020]

I'm in grad school, in a technical degree field (AE) just like you, shooting apps at fighter units just like you, and in my last semester (somewhat like you). If they told me that I would get that Viper slot but the caveat would be that I would have to drop everything RIGHT NOW, including withdrawing from school in my last semester of my M.S. and forego the degree altogether, I would do it in a heartbeat!!!

I've discovered that having advanced technical degrees matters little in the quest for a ANG fighter slot. No shit some of the responses I've gotten from current -16 dudes range from, and I quote: "Shit, you're smarter than I am..." and "Man you'd be great for TPS" to "F%ck, that's overkill son, I got this job with a CFI and an AS degree HA-HA-HA". I know this doesn't address your particular question but I needed to preface my point to you.

And my point is this: F$ck grad school until you get the ANG figured out. Your timeline to become an AF pilot is less flexible than pursuing grad school. Furthermore, I submit to you that is it highly unlikely that you will return to pursue graduate degrees once you're rated and flying for the Guard, you just won't find it worth it. My advice to you would be to do what I did. Apply to grad school, do your thing and pursue the Guard slot concurrently, have patience and be ready to drop that f!cker if you get selected. The variables are so many it is unlikely that you will know when and under what circumstances you'll get selected; pursuing grad school would serve as the classical 'delay tactic' until things settle down.

Now, regarding your grad school contentions... I think it's highly unlikely that you'll get an assitantship and/or fellowship if you're flying for the Guard. The reason being that they want people to be their b$tch, to sit down 5 days a week and chug work for the professor. Your month-to-month commitments to the Guard will make you a part-time grad student and technical programs do NOT like part-timers...i.e. you'll never get your sh$t approved and done with, at least my experience has been such in engineering. Believe me, I took it upon myself to take my sweet a$$ time getting this M.S., QOL sucks a$$ and I didn't want to go postal as all I've been really pursuing is the Guard slot...Furthermore, since I was non-thesis track (i.e. nobody's b$tch) the advising professor never checked up (or cared to) on me for 2 years until the Head of the Department basically dropped me from the payroll. I've been flying NOE for soo long they thought I had graduated!! LOL.. now I'm magically a 'degree candidate' this semester under duress :D .

At any rate, bottom line, it's just not a compatible affair. They won't hold off admission because you're in the Guard, that would be illegal ;) , you'll just hate the shenanigans so much you'll just move on.

I understand where you're coming from, and it sounds like a reasonable position to have. You certainly don't want to pay for grad school out-of-pocket, hell I wouldn't advise you to either, but I think you should put your flying career here first and then worry about the graduate degrees.

The other option would be to scrap the 'waiting on the Guard' approach to grad school and basically forego grad school altogether (not a bad idea!) and work in your field (something I was never willing to do) or chug side jobs until the Guard happens.

Either way, IMHO, you do NOT want to pursue graduate studies to completion BEFORE tackling a pilot slot, and if you're as passionate and determined to make the ANG thing work out for you I don't have to remind you either.

Good luck man

MDINC

[Guest sleepy]

To sum up MDINC's post, and also to concurrently express my own personal sentiments, f*ck grad school!

Been there, done that (for a short time). All I learned was how to become a better drinker.

You can do graduate studies anytime. Uncle Sam only wants to train you to fly while you're young.

MDINC, you seem like a fine, long-winded fella. I can empathize. Here's to you

[Guest AirGuardian]

Originally posted by PalmettoGuy:

Has anyone heard of or known anyone to go to graduate school while flying part time in the ANG (specifically a fighter unit and a technical degree). If so, did they get an assistantship or fellowship or financial aid for grad school?

In regards to the question,

It seems you WANT a BioChem G Degree and not asking if it will help your chances...?

Yes, there have been those who have finished grad school while applying to Guard units - not really advisable due to UPT issues, but many Grad schools do have a timeline that can give you several years to complete their program and be grandfather'd in to your original graduation requirements... Following and finishing would be the tough part.

Active Duty wise, there are many who have finished their graduate degrees to solidify their chances for higher rank or command despite the AF stating that it's a "masked" issue and no longer counts towards such things... Most of my counterparts who attended ACSC "higher AF learning/indoc supposedly," had Masters and sometime 2 which was overkill...depending on their AFSC of course. Since the AF paid for my attendance, they just gave me their generic G Degree, but it was not BioChem...

You have time to attend night class at a reduced rate of completion and fly for the ANG... depending upon what type of unit you're in and how they treat such things. But if you have been in the Guard, then you really have witnessed what we're all about. Most of the members have another Full-time job and the Guard is a sideline issue unless you're activated. Granted they take time off from work and sometimes vacation time to do the Guard thing. It all varies, but their are ways. Now more than ever many units are activated to do their prescribed missions, so understand who and what they exactly do and how it might impact your future wishes.

On Active Duty you can get your schooling paid for with additional years of service tacked on if nothing has changed. Guard wise it's a bit harder to accomplish a tuition free environment, but many do still have their G.I. Bill which helps. Scholarship is best of course so I used the AD guys to pay for my so-called AF Masters...

Anyway, to promote the other two guys ahead of me....If you are doing this to promote your candidacy to the Guard....blah, blah, blah, F this and F that, it probably won't help you and their correct... If you're serious, start flying some and show initiative in your future intended career!

Good luck!

[Guest PalmettoGuy]

I am not really trying to improve my chances w/ the Guard, I knocked out the AFOQT/PCSM, have a 3.26 in ChE, a well rounded background, work experience w/ a co-op program and undergraduate research, just lacking in the connections/LOR department (I realize that most of the guys that apply have backgrounds that are just as strong, and enlisting is not out of the question). I was dead set on applying to the Jan OTS board and flying AD, but I went back and am taking a gerneral biology class as an elective and really enjoy the material. So this semester I have also been thinking about persuing a graduate degree.

Ideally, I would love to get into cancer research on a biomolecular level. My dream would be to get my Ph.D, work part time at a university doing research/teaching(Medical University of SC in Charleston would be pretty great), and flying part time for for a certain fighter wing nearby. However, obviously, both those responsibilities would be pretty demanding, so I am just trying to see if anyone else had done anything similar.

Thanks ya'll

PalmettoGuy

[hindsight2020]

At the risk of sounding condescending, I don't think you have a big enough picture of what's involved in pursuing a PhD in either of your fields of interest/involvement. I'm right here reading about 'work part time at a university doing research/teaching'. I would HIGHLY recommend you research that some more. I'm not going to beat a dead horse, Airguardian already elaborated on the economic circumstances that make pursuing grad school while flying for the Guard a steep hill to climb, and to add my jist, a self-imposed and unnecessary one.

I'm also a little troubled by your assesment of what's involved in GETTING this flying gig. I must admit that, in the past 2 years, if there is one thing I've learned from this process is 1)patience and 2)a bitter cold sense of humility (the kind that's branded on and lasts a lifetime :D ). Don't be dismissive of the process, you think you're all good with your AFOQT knocked out, but I gotta tell ya, that doesn't mean sh$t. If you didn't intend to transmit this sentiment I apologize for misreading your reply. I'm just trying to provide you with some perspective, rather than seeing you getting it after your applications don't hook and bite the first couple of years and you throw the classical "WTF?!?."

You are looking at a VERY long line trying to get with the [good ol'] boys at the 169th FW. dumaisj is their latest pilot selectee, and a baseops regular, he might be able to give ya the jist on what's going on at their unit. Personally, I think you're probably going to have to enlist with them, he did, and that may or may not be compatible with grad school contentions (I submit that it is not). And yes, I have applied several years in a row so I know, at least a little, of what I'm talking about.

I'm not trying to discourage you at all, in fact I applaud the fact that, like me, you're looking at a career profile that's different from the boring ol' 'AS degree--Continental Express--Guard-until-Delta-calls' business, and some units appreciate that kind of diversity. I'm just trying to advise you on some of the personal and professional pitfalls that may leave you with a bitter taste in your mouth if you don't tread this route conservatively.

The bottom line on the matter is that at some point your aviation side is going to have to stand out if you want this to happen. Once again, this doesn't mean the usual path I scorned above, but like Air Guardian also pointed out in his reply, start flying some and showing commitment to that end.

I think your credentials show that in general you're smart enough to fly the thing, let me be the first one to welcome ya to the club, the line starts at the end, unless you're in-house of course ;) . Keep at it, please do yourself a favor and SPREAD THOSE applications, apply apply apply, call them up, don't be a retard on the phone or in person (if you can avoid it), have a plan (be it grad school or a different endeavor) that is compatible to waiting for the Guard AND waiting for and through training.

Considering the competition these days, the effort involved in securing these slots is not worthy, or sustainable (at least not anymore), for someone who's thinking 'it'd be a cool shit to fly on Sunday after I get home from Initech'; leave that for the commercials. It is something that you must pursue at the forefront of your career expectations, at least for the first part of it (getting the slot, UPT, IFF, FTU, MQT...). I repeat myself in saying that if you're truly passionate about it you'll have what it takes to be successful.

Somewhat identifying with your situation, I sincerely wish you the best. Take my assesment on the matter as opinion, yes, but do take the general theme to heart. Good luck man.

Sincerely

MDINC

[Guest PalmettoGuy]

MD,

I am sorry if I came off sounding like I was a shoe in for the SCANG. If you reread the post, I clearly say that I know otherwise

I realize that most of the guys that apply have backgrounds that are just as strong, and enlisting is not out of the question

By posting my qualifications, I was simply confirming AirGuardian's statement I am not going for the graduate degree simply to be more competitive.

Originally posted by MDINC:

At the risk of sounding condescending, I don't think you have a big enough picture of what's involved in pursuing a PhD in either of your fields of interest/involvement. I'm right here reading about 'work part time at a university doing research/teaching'. I would HIGHLY recommend you research that some more.

The fact is that I spent 3 semesters as a co-op for Michelin Tire Corp. and I dreaded the fact that I would spend 10 hours of my day when I graduate trying to save the company money/make a better tire. I simply could not be passionate about that (not knocking the corporate world, the US would not be what it is w/out it). Now two things that I could be passionate about are serving in the military and trying to help the human race the best way I can (cancer research, diabetes research). Those are the things that make me WANT to finish my Undergraduate degree.

I also realize that a Ph.D is no easy deal. I work daily for a ChE Ph.D student and we have talked about this subject. I talked to the chair of the Biochemistry department at my school, and he told me that they do not allow grad students to have commitments that require more than 10 hours/week because they want to produce graduates who are focused on acedemia.

Originally posted by MDINC:

I'm also a little troubled by your assesment of what's involved in GETTING this flying gig.

I realize that OTS is hard enough to get into, much less a Guard unit. Last spring I was talking to a friend of my girlfriends family who flew for the AFRES, and he just helped his son go through the app process for the AFRES. He said the same thing about the 169 FW. That I had no chance with the unit unless I knew someone, and also used the same good ol' boys terminology. But I'll do what it takes to get in if that is the path I choose. Ultimatly the decision is not up to me, but I'll do my best and hope that God's plans align with my desires. I have talked with dumaisj and Wilz. I realize that dumaisj is an Olympic Athelete (heck, I saw him on ESPN one morning), and that is somthing that I cannot come close to matching. But, I'll do my best and hope things work out.

Man, I am just wanting to do somthing where I look back 40 years from now and I don't say "What did I do with my life." I certainly know that flying for the Guard IS NOT a weekend job (which is another reason why I want my Ph.D, it would open up doors so that I could have more flexibility in my non-Guard job).

I appreciate you shooting me straight about all of this stuff. I realize that I know very little about the process, so any advice would be awsome. That is part of the reason why I post, to find out what I want is even a possibility. I hope to get down to McEntire next month (they had an ORI and I was sick last month), and learn from the horses mouth. I am heading out for some Mexican food and drinks. Take er easy!

PalmettoGuy

[hindsight2020]

No prob man, I did jump the gun a little; you've clearly done your homework. Your last reply strikes me as well-grounded, I think that's a huge positive for you long-term. Good luck with the folks in Carolina, I would give my left one to have that mission based in such beautiful country.

Ditto for the grad school questions, your exchange with the Dept Head was the kind of experience I was alluding to. Press on brotha..

MDINC

[Guest dumaisj]

PalmettoGuy and I have had a few discussions via PM...he seems like a good shit. I can verify that he isn't trying to feed anyone a line and I've offered to help out in any way possible. Truthfully, I don't know how much weight I carry. Right now, I am a professional paper shredder at McEntire. As for the "good ole boy syndrome" that has been mentioned, I'm a little uncomfortable with that. Actually, I don't like that much at all. Like I told PalmettoGuy, would you choose to spend a million bucks on a longshot gamble you know nothing about? My last interview could not have been more straightforward, mostly because the members already knew me. In my first interview (which was done over the phone as I was leaving for the Olympics), I was asked, point-blank, if I would enlist to increase my chances. I said, "Where do I sign?" I KNOW that impressed our Board...they told me. They wanted to see how bad I really wanted the opportunity to fly with them eventually...they didn't want anyone who wasn't willing to do WHATEVER it took. As I am a know-nothing scrub right now, take that for what it's worth (maybe not much). Just be unequivocally sure that there is NOTHING shady going on. There isn't a smoke-filled back room where the wheeling and dealing takes place. When I first started interviewing with units, I too was frustrated by getting beat out by prior enlisted dudes. I figured I'd join 'em and level the playing field...and it just happened to work out. Mostly, it gave me an appreciation of how difficult it is for a Board to make their selection decision; there's a reason they were all LTCs and above. I just wanted to jump in and defend my unit a little (what do ya know, I'm getting attached to them!). No hard feelings, just want everyone to have a clear picture. They are good dudes (and girls too) and they know what they're doing. Ok, back to my paper-filing and Excel spreadsheets...

[Guest rumblefish_2]

I'm afraid the good ole boy syndrome exists in every unit to some extent. If you haven't seen it yet, you will. And just to clarify, "good ole boy" doesn't always equal "shady." Sometimes a good ole boy will save your a$$ when you find yourself in a sticky situation.

As far as graduate degrees go, I think the sentiment has already been passed along that getting the slot will be your number one priority. After you've got it (and you will get it, right?) then UPT will be your number one priority. All of that being said, know this: one of my buddies in RTU right now started his Ph.D. in Electrical Engineering before he went to UPT, and "technically" he has been working on it to some extent ever since. Once he moves back to his Guard unit he will get the chance to work on it a little more. So if you can find a sponsoring professor who will hang on to ya for a couple of years then you may be able to pull it off. I also know of a dude back in my unit who was working on his MBA during his seasoning, so I guess that's possible too. I guess what I'm saying is, with the Guard, anything's possible...

[Guest PalmettoGuy]

dumaisj,

Hey man, I wasn't implying that anything "shady" was going on with the selection process, but the "good ole boy" term was just somthing that I heard from an experienced reserves pilot. The way I thought about the process is that the 169th has plenty of applicants, inside and out, that are well qualified to fly for them. So this allows them to consider who the person their choosing is in addition to how good of a pilot will they be. So if you have 10 applicants that look to be well qualified to excel in training, are you going to pick some random person off the street, or somone that you already have a connection with (be it by enlistment, being someones son, etc.)? I think that the answer is pretty obvious, and that loyalty in that sense is good (as long as the applicants have similar qualifications).

rumblefish,

How far is the school that your buddy is in from the Guard unit?

[Guest dumaisj]

Let me clarify: First, my post was not directed at anyone in particular. Second, I agree with rumblefish. "Good ole boy" doesn't necessarily equal "shady." However, it can often appear that way to someone from the outside. I was merely trying to set the record straight. Damn, I hope somebody on my team is gonna go to bat for me if I struggle a bit. In fact, my squadron commander has already done so in an attempt to help me secure an earlier class date. It didn't work out, but it spoke volumes that he was willing to do so. Like I said, I'm not pointing any fingers, just trying to clarify an often-held misconception. Guess I didn't do the best job there. No hard feelings right guys?

[Guest PalmettoGuy]

No hard feelings from me about anything you said man. I think we are all just misunderstanding the intentions behind each others posts (isn't it great how the internet prevents misinterpretations during communication... ). Anyways dumaisj, I can't wait to get down to McEntire to do some learnin.

One more question, seeing as right now I am not sure what I want to do, how bad does that look to a unit? Part of the reason I want to spend some time down at McEntire is so that I can get the big picutre of what goes on, and make my decision based on something other than what I THINK I know about Guard flying. Will it hurt to let the guys down there know what I am thinking, or should I just keep my mouth shut, learn, and make the decision on my own?

Thanks Folks

[Guest rumblefish_2]

Like I mentioned before, your number one priority is getting your pilot slot, so make sure the SC dudes know that. They don't want to hear about anything that might distract you. They want a dude that makes getting his/her wings the most important thing, especially a unit like SC that has such a sought-after mission.

My buddy that is in my unit was taking classes in the same town. My buddy getting his Ph.D. was enrolled at a school in Vermont.

[SUX]

As a new traditional guardsmen LT back to a tanker squadron after UPT would it be realistic to attend graduate school, probably on a part time basis, but also interested in maybe going to school full time. I am not really interested in an online degree at this time.

Also, does anyone know if the guard will help pay for graduate school. It is the state of Iowa if that helps. FWIW I sent a email to the unit retention manager about a week ago but have not heard back from him yet.

[JS]

You should have plenty of time as a guard bum to go to school. Being a bum is probably one of the most flexible jobs out there.

You should be eligible for the standard Air Force education benefits. Tuition Assistance pays $250/credit hour for advanced degrees and you can also use the GI bill to cover any expenses TA does not cover.

Start in your Wing/Unit education or training office for more information.

[trailmix]

Im in the same situation but was wondering if there was any chance of getting something like a tuition reimbursement for undergraduate debt?

Anyone?

[Guest sleepy]

pcgoeken-If you are reading in the shadows, check PM.

[JS]

Originally posted by trailmix:

Im in the same situation but was wondering if there was any chance of getting something like a tuition reimbursement for undergraduate debt?

Anyone?

Tuition reimbursement programs usually only apply to enlinsted jobs, and high-demand ones in particular.

I have not heard of any sort of reimbursement program for officers, or aircrew in particular, but you can only ask.

[Guest rhildreth]

I know that in Iowa where I am currently enlisted, I recieved tuition assistance, GI Bill, and Kicker while I was in school. I also had the $20,000 student loan repayment.

Now that I have a pilot slot, I will lose all of those benefits upon my departure for AMS.

I, too, will be going to grad school upon my UPT return, but it will be on my own dime.

[Guest wilco]

I think I was told that I get to keep Student Loan Repayment and whatever bonus has been paid at the time of my commissioning. Not sure though.

[Guest rumblefish_2]

All depends on the state folks. Some even allow education benefits for dependents. Check with your education office. I would make phone calls, instead of sending emails.

[HawkJ2010]

Holy thread revival! I apologize, but I do not want to start a new thread or commit the cardinal sin... so I UTFSF!

It's been a while since I have posted on here, however I have been PM'ing a few individuals. Thought I would throw my situation out to the whole Baseops.net community and get a collective thought on the issue.

I have been out of college for around a year now (received my BS) and now considering pursuing a MS in Business. Joining the ANG/AFRes has been on my mind for a few years now and after re-reading this thread I feel like I should put grad school on the back burner and just go enlisted ACM now. After all, I'm not getting any younger. The clock for becoming a pilot/ACM is limited whereas completing grad school has no limitations. I noticed how a few of you stated that after being selected in the ANG/AFRes your interest in pursuing a graduate degree had diminished.

At this point in time I would want to enlist in a unit that has C-17's as that is my favorite heavy aircraft. But when I compare the ANG units and the areas they are in I find no reputable graduate programs in my field. I'm not entirely sure about all of the AFRes C-17 units but I know of a few and they seem to be in better locations. I know many of you debate whether ANG/AFRes is better than the other but as far as Tuition Assistance goes it seems like the ANG has better funding, please correct me if I am wrong.

Since this is an 8 year old thread do you all feel the same way about this situation? Would you advise for or against me enlisting as an ACM, working my butt off, and then applying for a pilot slot or graduate school after the fact?

I will stop with the questions here as I dont want to overload ya'll. Also, if any of you know of any C-17 openings at either AFRes/ANG bases feel free to PM me. Otherwise I'll be cold-calling like everyone else!

Take it easy and God bless.

Edited April 8, 2013 by HawkJ2010

[O Face]

Holy thread revival! I apologize, but I do not want to start a new thread or commit the cardinal sin... so I UTFSF!

It's been a while since I have posted on here, however I have been PM'ing a few individuals. Thought I would throw my situation out to the whole Baseops.net community and get a collective thought on the issue.

I have been out of college for around a year now (received my BS) and now considering pursuing a MS in Business. Joining the ANG/AFRes has been on my mind for a few years now and after re-reading this thread I feel like I should put grad school on the back burner and just go enlisted ACM now. After all, I'm not getting any younger. The clock for becoming a pilot/ACM is limited whereas completing grad school has no limitations. I noticed how a few of you stated that after being selected in the ANG/AFRes your interest in pursuing a graduate degree had diminished.

At this point in time I would want to enlist in a unit that has C-17's as that is my favorite heavy aircraft. But when I compare the ANG units and the areas they are in I find no reputable graduate programs in my field. I'm not entirely sure about all of the AFRes C-17 units but I know of a few and they seem to be in better locations. I know many of you debate whether ANG/AFRes is better than the other but as far as Tuition Assistance goes it seems like the ANG has better funding, please correct me if I am wrong.

Since this is an 8 year old thread do you all feel the same way about this situation? Would you advise for or against me enlisting as an ACM, working my butt off, and then applying for a pilot slot or graduate school after the fact?

I will stop with the questions here as I dont want to overload ya'll. Also, if any of you know of any C-17 openings at either AFRes/ANG bases feel free to PM me. Otherwise I'll be cold-calling like everyone else!

Take it easy and God bless.

Well, being a guard guy I can offer you my advice, but I have to ask what it is you are trying to accomplish. From your post I gathered that you really want to go to grad school, so are you trying to join the guard to get your school paid for, or are you hoping to get a guard pilot slot and feel that having your MBA will help with your packet? If a C-17 pilot slot is what you want then I would say don't waste your time on an MBA because nobody on your board will give 2 shits if you have an MBA or not. I would recommend spending the grad school dollars on obtaining your private pilots license which will score you many more points with the board. Keep in mind guard pilot positions are extremely competitive and if all you are looking for is tuition assistance, well then I would go enlist in any any unit that will provide tuition money at a school where you want to study and not worry about the pilot thing.

[HawkJ2010]

Well, being a guard guy I can offer you my advice, but I have to ask what it is you are trying to accomplish. From your post I gathered that you really want to go to grad school, so are you trying to join the guard to get your school paid for, or are you hoping to get a guard pilot slot and feel that having your MBA will help with your packet? If a C-17 pilot slot is what you want then I would say don't waste your time on an MBA because nobody on your board will give 2 shits if you have an MBA or not. I would recommend spending the grad school dollars on obtaining your private pilots license which will score you many more points with the board. Keep in mind guard pilot positions are extremely competitive and if all you are looking for is tuition assistance, well then I would go enlist in any any unit that will provide tuition money at a school where you want to study and not worry about the pilot thing.

I apologize in not being clear about my goals. I ultimately want a pilot slot, but I first wish to enlist and obtain my Master's. I will not be obtaining the Master's for the reason of looking more competitive. I will be attending the program so that I may secure a sound civilian job during my enlisted ACM years, all the while applying for a Pilot slot. Some may have the mentality that a Master's is only going to slow down the process of getting a pilot slot, I have a feeling you bear this opinion as well. However, I plan on being enlisted as long as possible. I wouldn't want to go through a years worth of training for LM/Boom and then jump ship, unless that is what the unit would find suitable.

My main concern is whether or not a Guard unit would be more apt to funding such an education rather than a Reserve unit, due to the state & federal funding.

I appreciate the input. Have a great day.