On the fence again...

[Guest pinko]

I'm about 5 weeks away from track selecting and torn between T-1s and T-38's. I've been told I have the grades and skill to make 38's, but not sure of what I want...

I have a few questions for fighter drivers:

1) When does the studying end? How much time are you spending in the vault for the first few years? When does the studying let up (if at all)

2) What's the possibility of flying a UAV tour? Have any of you flown one yet? Do they suck?

3) Is it true that UPT studs who can't hack 38's are cut loose instead of moving into the T-1?

4) Is anybody on this forum over 6'2" ? I'm a bit worried about pulling 9 G's considering our mighty T-34 maxs out at +4.5

Finally, I have a feeling that if I go heavies, in 20 years I might look back and regret not having picked fighters. But at the same time, flying a heavy all over the world while i am commitment-less is a pretty tempting idea for the time being.

Any input is always apprecitated.

[Guest PalmettoGuy]

Question for ya (Sorry, no answers)

When you are at P-Cola (I assume you are since you were talking about T-34's), do you usually know if you have the grades to track T-38's as early as you do? Just a quick question, I don't mean to start a whole new "Do you have a better chance for 38's at Whiting" thread.

Thanks

[C17Driver]

Question #3 is one of my favorites. But to answer your question, yes, they are cut loose. Just like the guy that can't hack flying the T-1 is cut loose instead of moving into the T-38.

[Hacker]

I was in your same shoes when I was nearing Track Select about 6 years ago. I saw a lot of great aspects of both lifestyles and had a tough time deciding which to go with. For me personally, it all came down to someone pointing out to me that the negative thoughts I had about T-38s/fighters all had to do with my fear of washing out somewhere down the line. I didn't think I was good enough for it, I guess, so I was leaning toward what I thought was an easier route.

So, if that's where you're coming from too, I'll say that being scared of failure is a really lousy reason not to take advantage of a great opportunity for some really exciting flying and a very satisfying career in a fighter or bomber.

I'm sure that you can find some equally exciting flying out of the T-1 track, but in the end that just wasn't for me.

Originally posted by tktktk:

1) When does the studying end? How much time are you spending in the vault for the first few years? When does the studying let up (if at all)

Never! The intensity of your studying will trail off significantly when you're done with your FTU, but it will never completely go away. The thing about it is, the studying takes on a different flavor the further up the chain you go. At some point, you are studying because you're actually interested and want to get better, rather than because you have to in order to pass the next ride. For me, the pendulum went completely the other way when I was deployed for OIF: I was thinking, "I should have spent *more* time studying in the vault!" Spending lots of time in a vault studying and planning sounds pretty imposing as a Phase II stud, but the reality once you're operational is that it's not as bad as you think.

Originally posted by tktktk:

2) What's the possibility of flying a UAV tour? Have any of you flown one yet? Do they suck?

Choke yourself!! "Flying" a UAV is no more actully flying than playing a PC simulation (it just costs a lot more when you crash!). Seriously, I'm sure you'll have ample opportunities to get into the UAV community during your 10-year hitch if you want to, but don't voluntarily go there before you've even tried actually flying operationally.

Originally posted by tktktk:

3) Is it true that UPT studs who can't hack 38's are cut loose instead of moving into the T-1?

They wouldn't think of re-tracking a T-1 student that washed out into T-38s, so why should anyone expect it the other way around? T-38, T-1, T-44, and UH-1 students are considered separate-but-equal. If you're out of SUPT in the T-38, you're out.

Originally posted by tktktk:

4) Is anybody on this forum over 6'2" ? I'm a bit worried about pulling 9 G's considering our mighty T-34 maxs out at +4.5

I am 6'2" and have no problems...and know pilots significantly taller than myself that also have no issues at 9G (other than the normal pain of doing that!!).

Originally posted by tktktk:

Finally, I have a feeling that if I go heavies, in 20 years I might look back and regret not having picked fighters.

This is in *no* way a slight to the heavy drivers, but the way I've always thought about it is this: There are probably not a lot of fighter guys out there who have ever thought to themselves after their career is over, 'man, I wish I would have flown a C-5'. I agree with your assertion that it would be cool to see the world rather than just fly around the flagpole.

For me, the excitement of tactical flying outweighs my desire to fly to lots of places in the world and stay overnight. I guess in the back of my mind I'm thinking that I can get that fix during a 2nd career with the airlines if that's what I choose.

[Guest pinko]

Originally posted by PalmettoGuy:

Question for ya (Sorry, no answers)

When you are at P-Cola (I assume you are since you were talking about T-34's), do you usually know if you have the grades to track T-38's as early as you do? Just a quick question, I don't mean to start a whole new "Do you have a better chance for 38's at Whiting" thread.

Thanks

Yeah, they give us a NSS which is what the navy/marines use as a ranking system. The word on the street is that if you have better than a 55 NSS out of Whiting, you can get 38s as long as your onwing and others you've flown with agree that you'll be able to keep up.

In regards to the 3rd question about being cut loose, now that I think about it that makes sense. I've been perceiving the T-1 as a slower program and a slower aircraft... maybe that's why you hear more about fear of not hacking the 38 program as opposed to the T1 program. And for studs out of Whiting such as myself, transitioning to the AF way of life (a new pattern, standups, and pubs, mostly) will be another challenge.

Hacker, I think you hit the nail on the head. My fear of failure is a large part of what's keeping me from fighters. That and the fear of a UAV tour... I'm trying to avoid them like the plague.

Thanks for the input everybody.

[TacAirCoug]

If you want a little of both worlds (tactical flying and the heavy lifestyle), Herks aren't a bad way to go. I've got a lot of hours under my belt doing NVG low levels, short field landings, tactical approaches/departures, etc. over in Iraq/Afghanistan. I've also done a lot of drinking in some great places while going between home and the desert. We're deployed a lot, but I wouldn't trade the flying and experience I gained over there in a Herk for any other airframe...

Also, if you go Herks it's pretty unlikely you'll get yanked to go play Microsoft Flight Simulator for three years. We need the pilots too badly.

[Guest NoseArtGal]

And don't forget that if you go Herks you'll not only have a tactical flavor combined with a heavy lifestyle but you'll have "other" options that put more of a hurting on the enemy than the vast majority of fighters, imho. Herks are a great way to go. But if you're scared you might not make it through 38s and you need that litmus test then that won't help you much (unless maybe you fly U-2s later on and go through 38 training that way). But I understand where you're coming from. I turned down 38s in UPT and although I'd do it all over again...I'd still like to have the opportunity to fly something fast and pull a lot of Gs. Tough choices.

[Guest AirGuardian]

"I'm thinking that I can get that fix during a 2nd career with the airlines if that's what I choose." - Hacker's statement.

I'm not feeling slighted in any way, just pointing out a common misnomer on one of the many parts of the this flying vs that flying. It's not really so much the visitation rights we're proclaimed to get - It's the ability to go somewhere and have a blast with your best buds altogether in your own plane, doing your own thing and trying to get longer delay times from TACC to do even more...

For the current awesome fighter dudes think of it this way - the good times and parties ya'll have while at Red Flag, Maple Flag, any Flag, well just multiply it by 30 a year (minimum) and in places like: Hawaii, New Zealand, UK, Germany, Italy, Souda Bay - Crete, France, Thailand, etc. now a fighter unit could get lost in Thailand and I know the Hawaii F-15 ANG unit is currently...

We've had airline guys come back to our unit. The money can't justify flying with those who are nice, but you don't know'm of course cus you don't have the chance flying up to sometimes 5 legs a day. How often do you think they fly with their buds and during down time have as much fun as we/you do currently. They don't tend to hang out in their airline 'squadrons', hmmm. Believe me, if it weren't for the money, they wouldn't or would I even consider it! $$$ tends to be good after you pay your dues. Pays the bills and much more in the end, but it's definitely not the same alcoholics moving cargo, etc...

Flying wise. You can't beat turning and burning for 1.5, 2, 3, .5 whatever flt time, but there is a price to pay! Best flying in the world I hear and justifyably more demanding in many ways. Good luck to all and make the choice for yourself - Godspeed!

[pcola]

tktk, quit whining and go for the 38. You are so friggin modest it's unbelievable. You know you have the skills and the attitude, failure is not even in the realm of possibility. I saw you drooling over that fighter video at the AF career brief. If you don't take the 38 I'll kick your ass the whole way through T-1's. There you go, decision made.

[scoobs]

What did you decide?

[Gravedigger]

I think the threat of an ass kicking by pcola is enough reason to go fighters. Did you see the picture of the car he posted. This dudes loco. :D Besides if you already have the sweet fighter skills, and nunchucks skills, you're good to go. Ahh idiot.

[ 30. January 2005, 13:53: Message edited by: c17wannabe ]

[Guest pinko]

After doing some soul searching last night while listening to Dos Gringos and sipping on some whiskey, fighters are looking pretty darn good... i want the challenge.

Fine, who am I kidding. Pcola's threat is what pushed me over the fence. There, I admit it.

Whats the transition from 38's to IFF like? I did a search but didnt come up with much... From what I've read on only 1 gouge website, it's all about flying single-seat style with a "safety observer" (IP) in the back. Also, if i understand correctly, grades (0-4) dont count, as long as you pass the flight. Also, you're always wrong and you could have done everything during the flight better. Oh and that you have to remember what color marker the IP uses and in the debrief to rewrite what he wrote in the brief exacltly the same way- to include color of ink and punctuation used. Anybody have any experiences similar to this?

Thanks again for any input.

[Hacker]

Originally posted by tktktk:

Whats the transition from 38's to IFF like?

Students don't really transition to IFF so much that the program itself is a transition -- a transition from White Jet student to Fighter Pilot Wingman.

If you haven't flown the T-38C in SUPT, then there is a 3-flight, 3-sim conversion course prior to starting IFF. For the IFF syllabus itself, students have 4 tactical formation rides to get their admin right prior to starting BFM.

Originally posted by tktktk:

it's all about flying single-seat style with a "safety observer" (IP) in the back.

We definitely teach a single-seat decisionmaking mentality, with the back seat IP's job being to teach you the tactical portions of the sortie (in other words, he's not going to instruct you on how to fly an ILS, but will definitely grade you on it, as this is a task you should be fully competent in leaving SUPT). The only time that the 'pitter is just a safety observer is if the ride is a "solo" but the weather won't allow an actual student solo flight.

Originally posted by tktktk:

Also, if i understand correctly, grades (0-4) dont count, as long as you pass the flight.

It's certainly not correct that grades don't count at IFF: there is still a minimum passing grade for each maneuver and flight. What is meant when students say that is it's non-competitive. In other words, at SUPT, your grades matter because you're competing with your classmates for tracks, assignments, or whatever. At IFF, all of that is all ready decided, so there is no tangible benefit to doing "great" versus just "good" (aside from picking up a DG or Top Gun trophy).

Originally posted by tktktk:

Also, you're always wrong and you could have done everything during the flight better.?

That's called honest feedback. You'll be debriefed on every aspect of your flight, and the standard is "perfect". Since there hasn't been a perfect flight yet, that always leaves us something to debrief. As for "you're always wrong", it's a challenge for some pilots to understand the wingman mentality: that the flight lead is calling *all* the shots, and the wingman is there to provide support, and *not* to have an opinion or make any decisions. If you are just a "sponge" and do what we tell you to, you'll be just fine. This is especially harsh at IFF since it is the first time most wingmen-to-be have ever been exposed to this type of environment and we (as IPs) have to set the correct tone early.

Originally posted by tktktk:

Oh and that you have to remember what color marker the IP uses and in the debrief to rewrite what he wrote in the brief exacltly the same way- to include color of ink and punctuation used.

Attention to detail. How can I expect my wingman to remember how to execute a 3K defensive BFM gameplan if he can't even remember what the *specific* objectives were for the sortie? Is it student harassment? I thought so as a student, but as a flight lead later on in my flying career it was very clear why it was done that way at IFF.

[TheGreatWaldo]

I had a question about the Navy/Marine guys. If they have an NSS above 55, do they automatically get the T-2 if they want it(as long as the IP okays it)? Is there a cap (sts) on the number of fighter slots per class like in the AF. For example, if you had a UPT class at Colombus who all made the grade for 38's, there would probably still only be about 4 or 5 dropped, right? Is that the same for the Navy/Marine guys at Whiting, or is it if you make the grade, you get your choice. I was also wondering how it works for a Navy/Marine guy going through SUPT at an AF base. When you get through T-6's, who makes the call of what you go to next. Are you racked and stacked with all the AF dudes, or evaluated by yourself.

Sorry for the inquiries, but I just recently switched from AF to Marines.

To get back on original topic; I would definitely go 38's if I had the chance. Don't worry about IFF, they're a great group of guys down at Moody; they'll take care of you.

[Guest pinko]

Hacker- thanks again for the answers. Funny how what someone pointed out to you is now being pointed out to me. Sometimes an outside observation is all you need to help make a decision...

Originally posted by TheGreatWaldo:

I had a question about the Navy/Marine guys. If they have an NSS above 55, do they automatically get the T-2 if they want it(as long as the IP okays it)?

This is not the case as of right now and hasnt been for the past 7 months I've been at Whiting. For the Navy side of things, if you have a score (I don't know the exact number, but guess it's around 60+) that's up there, you have a chance of jets. Example- like the 78 that one of our buddies pulled off a few months ago...

Marines are sortof being told what they're gonna get. Pcola, correct me if im wrong, but Marines in our squadron are "drafted" for jets if their NSS is in a certain range because they're short on tac pilots. Many of those below the magical number get helos. But, from all the Marines I've met who've tracked, they've all been happy no matter what they tracked to.

Maybe it's because everything they fly has a gun on it. Hooorah

[ 30. January 2005, 19:12: Message edited by: tktktk ]

[pcola]

The latest I heard was that the Marine "jet draft" was over, but that was just the opinion of one Marine. May or may not be true. Anyway, I personally know of one Marine that wanted helos but got jets at Meridian because his NSS was 67. That was in November.

[ellsworb]

SO WHAT DID YOU PICK TK

[Guest pinko]

TONES BABY TONES!

[scoobs]

What finally pushed you away from fighters?Amd why not hercs?

[ 22. March 2005, 22:03: Message edited by: scoobs ]

[Guest Hydro130]

Bottomline,

The Fighter community draws those who are best suited -- and the Good Lord knows I love 'em all, cuz I wouldn't ever want to do it (I too turned down a fighter slot for Hercs as a first choice). I say that because I don't possess the necessary personality; it's not just about monkey-skills when it comes to an airplane... Managing a 4-ship as a fighter flight lead is a whole differeny ball of wax from a heavy 4-ship, and it just plain takes a different personality to make it work -- mine (and most other heavy-bros'/sisses' out there) personalities are what lead to success and happiness flying. It ain't about what airframe THEY think you should fly because of your monkey-skill talent; you know your own personality and where that can best help us all in a joint force environment!

my 2 cents =)

Hydro

On that note, the Heavy community also drows its own personalities (hopefully equally well-suited)