ANG Pay System Explained (AFTP, UTA, Title 10/32)

[Guest jriggoMOANG]

I am trying to get a Guard Pilot Slot with a C-130 unit. My wife and I are trying to find what the typical pay is for a student at UPT. Also, how much can a 130 guy get after UPT just being a Guard Bum. just trying to get info.

Jason

[Bergman]

A quick search of www.dfas.mil under the "Military Pay Information" tab reveals...

2Lt Base Pay =$2264.40

Subsistence Allowance =$175.23

Flight Pay= =$125.00

Total=$2564.63 before taxes per month ($30775.56 per year)

I am assuming you would be living on base, and therefore would not get a housing allowance. That pay info would be good for the first 2 years, not including the cost-of-living increase every January (3.5% of base pay this year, I think).

As for Guard bumming, you're looking at $75.48 + 1/30th of your flight pay ($4.17) per drill period. With 96 drills and FTPs per year, that would be $7646.40. Add in your 2 weeks of annual training at $1282.32 and you're at a MINIMUM of $8928.72 or so just for doing the bare minimum as a part-time Guard bum. Depending on the unit, you could earn quite a bit more than that. We have part-time 1Lts who are on "Temp Tech" orders that start at $7400 PER MONTH. But those are pretty hard to come by and there are no guarantees how long it will last.

Hope this helps!

[BFM this]

Got a bud at my last Reserve unit who rejoined the drilling reserves after about 4 years of IRR. While on IRR, he continued to accrue points for retirement by doing correspondence courses and other odds/ends, and continued to accrue time for pay so that when he came back to the squadron, he was accordingly moved up the pay scale.

Now, we're talking USMCR vs USAF, but we're all on the same DOD team, right?

The issue is starting to take clarity as I read and reread AFI36-2604. The rub is that I've got an AFPC type who is sending me emails saying that she's moving back my pay date unless I provide documentation going back to my high school recruiter. If she's at a Force level personel center, shouldn't she be able to verify my service?

[Guest C17Heavy]

What is the significance of having, or not having a break in service? You know my situation Airguardian; left active duty on 1 Jul 00, and signed up with the guard on 5 Jul 00. The 4 day break was due to the 4th of July holiday. How does this 4 day break affect me?

[Guest AirGuardian]

flyinjunky,

She should know her job, if she does than she's lying to you or outright lazy. Records are records in most cases, granted she might not have your detailed flying history, but school dates and other service duty should show up somewhere. Unless she's/they are new at this, it shouldn't have been the first time someone posed this question. Seems as though anyone(a few out there) who can have their finger on you at some point in your career will take advantage of it and make you work harder than necessary. OR, she/they/someone lost those files in some computer mishap/mix-up and aren't willing to take responsibity for it...therefore, you are paying the price once again for the lack of complacency others exude... Sorry for no real resolution other than having any orders you may have kept on file and throw them on her/their desk with the best paper vs weight capacity to gain some pitiful response... check with anyone who put you on orders or the schools you may have attended - records are kept as a normal log routine at training bases normally in the minimalist capacity... While DOD yes and it would make sense, there are reems of paperwork that mean the same thing, but definitely do not correlate from service to service. OPRS, OERS, FEB's, NATOPS, it could be anything and I'm sure some people have been more fortunate than most of us in other services, yet I've heard horror stories from them as well... Not much help, I apologize. Godspeed on this one!

[Guest AirGuardian]

C17Heavy,

Bro, the 4 day break in service might not have impacted you very much at all, since a normal holiday and other circumstance seem to be inclusive - not always. It's just a matter of losing some time in service/on duty/continuous service accruement. If you had several weeks between AD and here, then the Ready Reserve might have been tagged on you - basically qualifying you for nothing, retirement wise. An after thought: Let's say you weren't hired on the same date, but you did not go to UPT for 1 year and then signed on prior to AMS then UPT, etc. That year off could have helped you in total service time extending your current eligibility with your technician job. You know, the mandatory retire by 53, 55, 58 vs 60 we discussed during our HQ Technician indoc course if you will. So with your prior service and now as a technician it seems to all count against us for the technician sake - am I wrong you tell me, and we can check again when you come'on back. Since you went to UPT very quickly age critical wise like myself, there's not much we could've done better really. We'll go check with the MS ANG HQ cosby lady to see if anything else might have been missed... there might be more to it than I definitely know.

How's Altus, and yes I'm going to get the base administrator to open this site up again for business sake since I've had alot of inquires about our unit. I'm currently typing this on my lunch break at home as you can see.

You and Freddie keep each other in check, but not in Check flight, and we'll see you when you get back. Let us/me know if you need anything while you're away. Don't think about here, just enjoy that Altus sun/rain now and the winds! Take care bud!

-Mike

[Guest thebronze]

Apparently The AF Reserve HQ doesn't think that Reservists are eqaul to AD guys for pay purposes.

Here's the story:

I make a quick stop in Subic Bay in Apr of this year (I'm a reserve C-5 dood). I was on OEF orders for the trip. According to everything I've read (including a letter from US PACOM) if one is on OEF orders and goes to the PI, that trip makes you tax-free and gets you Hostile Fire Pay for the month.

Well, I received the HFP.

So good, so far...

I didn't get tax-free credit for that month and called the pay lady to find out what the deal is.

She said that us Reservists don't get tax-free for going to the PI, because the powers-that-be at the Air Reserve Personnel Center did not approve PI for tax-free for Reservists and if she tried to submit us for TF, it would get kicked back.

WTF???? I thought we were "One Team" and all that bullsh*t?

So much for the "Total Force" concept...

Has this happened to anyone else?

Any thoughts on how to rectify this inequity?

Thanks in advance...

[Guest AirGuardian]

Pretty :( being a Guard/Reservist maintaining the same requirements and getting in the .... Plenty of more Active Duty on it's way which makes me and all the time. Right now our unit has been able to fend off the vultures and help out without being so we've got that going for us! Good luck on your crusade and sign me up! Our activation ain't over yet so I'm looking forward to the next !!!

[ 26. August 2005, 23:07: Message edited by: AirGuardian ]

[ASUPilot]

I've done some searches on this site and really haven't found the complete answer. I'm palace chasing to the Guard, thank God! Obviously the $4000/month I'm used to taking home as a senior 1lt on active duty (0-2 over 10) will be nearly impossible to achieve in the Guard. However, from what I can tell I get paid for man-days and aftp's. I think on drill weekends you make 2 pay periods per day. So, if you take my base pay of 3736.20 my rate "per period" is 124.54. I guess if I fly I'll get 1/30th of my 188 ACIP. Do I get BAH, and if so, is it Type I or II? Also, if I live say, 20 miles from the unit, am I paid for travel expenses? My unit said they have plenty of stuff for me to do to stay "busy" and get paid. I'm trying to figure out a budget for myself until I get the Title 10 AD TDY orders to the Rock where my pay will be back on the 15th and 30th of the month. I'm confused because a Reserve friend of mine out of March ARB said he's working between 24 and 28 days per month and is grossing 5400/month. I appreciate anyone who can help me make sense of this.

[Bergman]

Originally posted by ASUPilot:

I think on drill weekends you make 2 pay periods per day.

Correct

So, if you take my base pay of 3736.20 my rate "per period" is 124.54. I guess if I fly I'll get 1/30th of my 188 ACIP. Do I get BAH, and if so, is it Type I or II?

No BAH on drills or FTPS, just base rate plus 1/30th flight pay.

Also, if I live say, 20 miles from the unit, am I paid for travel expenses?

This may vary by unit, but in general I would say NO, as you are within the commuting distance. I believe it's 50 miles or greater to get expenses (read: unit pays for hotel stay; not mileage/per diem).

I'm confused because a Reserve friend of mine out of March ARB said he's working between 24 and 28 days per month and is grossing 5400/month.

You are probably getting half the story. Is your friend pulling alerts? That gets you into an entirely different pay discussion. He could be making that much a month by catching up on drills...i.e. hasn't been to the base in 2 months then works 21 days straight at 2 pay per day. More than likely, he is burning his normal drills and FTPS (8 pay periods per month) plus pulling some man-days (esentially AD days..1/30th of your active duty pay, with BAH) to get to that monthly number.

That's my best shot. The ANG pay system can best be described as "a riddle within a mystery wrapped in an enigma". If/when you ever figure it out completely, please let the rest of us know!

[ASUPilot]

Bergman, crap...I forgot...my friend is a -135 driver and his unit does have an alert committment. He said he'll actually gross about $65K this year. I guess the alert pot of money is different. He gets paid to commute there, plus BAH when he works. I think he said on alert days he makes $250/day and on man-days he makes about $220/day. I'm guessing that without an alert committment the most days I'll work and still be sane would probably be 26 days/month. Boy, am I really glad I bought that G35 coupe in April now...it's only $60 to fill it up with gas!!!

[Bergman]

Originally posted by ASUPilot:

I guess the alert pot of money is different.

Yes, it's somewhat different. Something like 3 pay periods in 2 days. I've never sat alert in the tanker/ANG, so don't have very good info. I believe Scooter, KIPP, and some others have BTDT and can speak with some authority.

He gets paid to commute there, plus BAH when he works.

That's because they are putting him "on orders" [for alert, just to fly, or whatever]. If you are on orders, you will get mileage (anyone else see the rate hike to 48.5 cents/mile?!) and per diem. For just a regular part-timer commuting on drill weekend (or making up drills), you will NOT get those benefits. Thus, it's advantageous to be put on orders.

[Guest Robes]

migkilr, you will get paid for the days you work... lets say that your base pay is $3000/month. If you work one day you will make 1/30th of $3000 or $100 for that day of work plus 1/30th of your BAS and BAH (only if you are on AD orders). Now if you are doing some inactive training (UTAs & RUTAs) you will get paid that same $100 for four hours of work, but no BAH or BAS. So in your example you would be making 1/3 of your AD pay.

I hope that did not confuse you.

Robes

[Bergman]

Originally posted by migkilr:

I'm an AD guy looking to transition to a traditional reserve job (pilot) and I'm a little confused about how the pay works. For instance, if I work 10 days in a month will get 1/2 of my AD duty pay (since I work about 20 days in a month AD) or 1/3 of my AD pay (since its only 1/3 of the month).

I know its more complicated than this, but I'm just trying to ballpark it. Thanks!

For each Active Duty day you work, you will be paid 1/30th of the full-time salary, to include flight pay, BAS, BAH (only Type II if the orders are less than 30 days consecutive). Your logic of "only working 20 days a month" might be true - kind of like the old joke "How many people work in the Pentagon? About half" - but AD is actually PAYING you for 30 days of work...it's just at the convenience of your commander that you don't work all 30 of them.

The problem is that you don't have unlimited paydays in the ANG. 48 drill periods, 48 FTPs, and 15 active duty days a year (min). Anything beyond that is gravy, and somewhat hard to come by these days due to ANG budget cuts. Airlift units are doing well, but seems like everyone else is feeling the pinch.

[Scooter14]

SUTAs = 48 per FY = 1/30th base & fly pay-4 hr block

AFTPs = 48 per FY (usually broken into 12 per quarter) = same as SUTA - 4 hr block

AT Days = 15 per FY = 1/30th base, fly, BAS & Type II BAH - full day

School days = same, unless more than I wanna say 120 days, then you get 1/30th of the full Type 1 BAH for your HOR per day.

Alert Tours = Some pay 2 for 1, some pay 3 for 1. If they are Title 10, they should pay 1/30th of everything per day, to include Type 1 BAH, but that may be unit dependent.

Title 10 trips - Pay 1/30th of everything per day

More than 30 days of orders in support of a contingency= full TRICARE for 6 months after you come off orders

More than 90 consecutive days in support of a contingency = TRICARE fr 6 months after you come off orders + the ability to buy into TRICARE Reserve Select for the next full year.

Hope this helps. Ditto what PilotKD said. The region he's going to and I'm livin in has some pretty high BAH rates/cost of living. Not getting that makes a big difference. It can be done, you just need to know what you're getting and what you are not. Good on ya for planning ahead.

[Guest Slye]

For TRICARE, you talked about more than 30 and 90 days of orders 'in support of a contingency'. What exactly does that mean? Do orders for UPT, IFF, FTU count for getting TRICARE once you go part-time? What about orders for seasoning training? Thanks.

[Stiffler]

NO...contigency is war. So OIF, OEF etc.

[Nanook]

UTA (Unit Training Assembly) and AFTP/AGTP Additional Flight Training Period/Additional Ground Training Period) = IDT (Inactive Duty for Training). IDT can be one twofer style except AGTPs...you can't do two AGTPs in a day, tho' the smartest folks schedule their sim periods (as an example) as one UTA period plus one AGTP to get the two for a day. Max UTA periods in a quarter is 16. Tricare coverage is for each 90 ISO contingency. Two years activation = 8 years health care. Much nicer than when I was a bum in the early '90s with no health care.

[herkbum]

After reading TheBurt's answer to a question, I decided to post his response. I hope this will help many ANG members out because this is the best description of the different ways to get paid in the ANG. Again, thanks Burt.

AFTP= Additional Flying Training Period. Each AFTP is a minimum of 4 hours, you can do a max of two in one calendar day. There are two types: ground AFTP, flying AFTP. Ground AFTP's are usually limited to a max of 12 per year, you can only do 4 grounds in a quarter. You can do a max of 16 AFTP's in a quarter, but are still limited to 48 per year. This is the norm for a ANG C-130 unit. There are other units and branches that get 72 AFTP's per year. You can do two flying AFTP's in a calendar day or a ground and a flying. You cannot do 2 ground AFTP's in one calendar day. AFTP's do not carry over the fiscal year, if you haven't used them, you lose them (yes there are exceptions). If you use all of them, (48) then you have to find another pay status to accomplish flying events, there is another category called a PT, but the commander doles those out and is not a preferred way to pay you.

UTA= Unit Training Assembly otherwise called drill, again, a minimum of a 4 hour block. If you get excused from drill you can make up the UTA, either before or after the normally scheduled drill period some call it a RUTA, "Rescheduled UTA". Again, they do not carry over the fiscal year, exceptions, of course, it's the friggin' guard, however not the norm since the money has to be accounted for during the fiscal year.

Title 32= active duty for training, usually the status you're in for :JA/AT's, taskings, annual training, some overseas deployments, some staff tours etc.

Title 10= active duty, usually for contingencies ie. OIF, OEF, and others, however you can also be on title 32.

OK, now, in one day you can do only one active duty day, or a combination of any of the following two: UTA, AFTP (ground or flying), technician's well another can of worms. You could do one AFTP or UTA in a day and do 2 sorties, I know one guy that did this because he wanted to get the max flying hours per year. However, I and others highly frown upon this, it sets a bad precedent, for many reasons (later discussion)

State Active Duty= highway robbery, stay away from it if possible. Usually only "base pay" for your rank, ie. no flight pay, Bah II, subsistence, and each state's per diem form is a nightmare and requires your grandparents signature, state attorney general etc.

[Guest Rainman A-10]

Originally posted by herkbum:

You could do one AFTP or UTA in a day and do 2 sorties, I know one guy that did this because he wanted to get the max flying hours per year. However, I and others highly frown upon this, it sets a bad precedent, for many reasons (later discussion)

The opposite is a taxi back where a guy logs 2 AFTPs on one tank of gas.

The minimum is 4 hours. That's the minimum.

Overall Herkbum has a good summary of the system. Here's the source document.

[Guest bigwebs]

Hey all,

Im a reservist (135R) in training trying to get some pay answers.

Ive heard that generally when a new pilot completes follow on training they are generally made to do a "PROG" tour. I also heard that some units then keep pilots on active duty orders all the time, but without the designation of an ART/AGR. To me this sounds way to good to be true. Somone told me they expect to be kept on a constant cycle of 180 day active orders after finishing training. So Icalculated that at most a new reservist could make as much as about 60,000 their first year back, or as little as about 20,000 which seems like a huge range.

My question is, what should the average pilot who has just completed follow on training expect upon returning to their unit, in terms of amount of active duty pay days to expect.

Also what are these PROG tours, and how long do they last.

Finnally, for somone who wants to make a living in the reserve, what is the best way to make it "as full time as possible", and get paid.

Im not trying to sound greedy, but mainly need to know what expect, so i can plan accordingly for family etc.

TIA

[hindsight2020]

The answer to your question is a big "it f%ckin depends". The availability of man days varies from unit to unit. Factors that play into your paycheck as a bum/trougher are the type of airframe, the general ops tempo of the individual unit, as well as the number of co's/wingmen doing the exact same thing you're doing when you get there.

In general I would say you will fare well in the 135. Heavy units tend to have a healthier allocation of man days than the fighter types. As it pertains to the seasoning period (which are active duty days), it is my understanding that it used to be quite healthy, circa a year. From talking to other guard guys the number now varies. Some expect 30-45 days (myself included), others have 270 days, others a year. The longer periods tend to be quoted by the fighter guys in my recent epxerience asking this. Again, your individual unit will be the one to definitively answer that one.

Now regarding pay once back in traditional status. The guarantee is 48 pay periods for UTAs (12 drills @ 4 pay periods per), 48 AFTP and your 14 AT days (15 for Guard...the f%ck I know why one day more..) Clearly this amount to roughly 9Kish for 2LT rate and clearly not enough to live on. I don't think your unit is going to set you up for that kind of expectation. You WILL make more than that. How much more depends on the factors I stated above. For 135 guys I would venture to say the biggest factor is how many other co's bumming at the time of your arrival. If you're one of the few, then there should be enough work to enable you not to have a second job. If there's a lot like you then yeah the pickings will be slim. At least you're not in a fighter unit, I would venture to say that it is a little more difficult to pick up man days in a fighter unit, plus you have to actually fly twice in one day to "double teep" (toungue n' cheek guys...:) ) that's Guard for burning two pay periods in one calendar day.

At any rate, as you can see things can vary a lot. I would ask your Capt types in your unit, they're right in the thick of it and would be able to answer you fully without much reservation. I've heard of people accruing roughly 300 pay periods calling it a good year, on 2LT that's 25-27K, 1LT about 35K etc..and I think I might be low-balling the math as I don't know if I've figured the pay fractions fully. Anyways, that's like 4 man days a week averaged out.....which is a healthy amount. The Guard/Reserves (in my short experience so far) takes care of its own, you should have no problem finding work as a new co. Now, how much pay also depends on your expectations. Are you going to make 60K? I don't think so. Could you? Maybe, but at least I'm not banking on it. Are you going to make 12K? No, you're not. You'll make anywhere above 30K. Guys in my unit have made 45K the first year, it is my expectation to make a similar amount and I've been told by folks in my unit to not expect to have a second job. PROVIDED you don't have much competition from other co's in the bumming dept I also expect you to pull upwards of 35-40K your first year.

After the first year things get better, the whole issue for the new guy is the 2LT pay rate, once you go up in rank the pay periods become more valuable and making your income target becomes easier.

The other thing that I think you have going on in your favor is the fact that you're brand new. The unit's expectation is to have you available and working the line much more so than the seasoned guys. Most guys I know going thru training right now are all expected to be local, and so was I. So clearly there is the notion that the unit wants you and needs you there to do the one job you're supposed to be doing as a fresh co/wingman...to become proficient in your jet. I think the naysayers come with a little negative transfer from the shut up and color attitude presented to the active duty LTs, but I digress. My point is that I don't see your unit forcing you to min run as a NEW guy, which would necessitate a civilian job right off the start (the scenario Rainman alluded to). The unit expects you to be there almost full time the first year.

Regarding civilian employers, once again, odds are you're better off bumming/troughing. Once you take a peek at the civilian employers you will quickly discover that aside from an airline gig, the schedules just don't jive. It is very difficult for a brand new guy to fulfill the additional commitment that entails being new at that unit and maintain the 9-5. The unit (should) understands this, which is why so many of us are "encouraged" to be locals. As I said before, all the guys going thru training with me right now are going to be locals, pretty much as condition of employment. That's not a coincidence. You WILL be flying more your first year than the average O-5 in the unit, guy who mind you, can make the same coin as you in the fraction of the pay periods. So you see there is a method to this madness after all.

So let's say you're thinking on going to the regionals as a way to cover your livelihood. Chances are you WILL make more bumming than on first year FO pay. That means your opportunity cost is better to stay at the unit (and stay in town) all week than commute to sit reserve and make sh%t while the neighbor takes care of your wife/gf all week. Hell, on the -135 you are likely to match or exceed the yearly flying hours that you would on a regional, which even as SIC time it sure as hell looks better than RJ time anyways.(and the only airline that cares about 121 time notes military time in lieu of 121 so there ya go) You could even go and get hired at the regional and then go on leave as much as possible, I consider that somewhat of a dick move to your FO bretheren, and would have a hard time keeping a straight face about it, but it is an option to deal with the only hit you might be taking, which is the health care issue. So I see little reason for you to actually need a second job, other than you want a lavish lifestyle and/or already have 3-4 kids and have no choice but to suck it up chase as much coin as you can.

Once you're a CAPT, and AC on that big ol'jet then your options and pay issues become exponetially alleviated. I still find it a great opportunity to have the priviledge to serve in the Guard/Reserves and most of the flak you'll catch from the AD types (the ones who object to bumming I'm referring to ONLY btw), while mostly consisting of the Guard baby name-calling and constant references to your canned training missions, have more to do with the fact that they wished they would have done their homework on the ANG/AFR a little earlier. TC :)

My purely speculative $2.75 on the matter.

Good luck brother

[Guest Ftrooper91]

It changes all the time. When I was bumming I made 35K my first year as a Capt. I am full time now (best path to full time is as a bum very often though not always) With the GWOT right now there are more requirements out there than AD can possibly fill. I have quite a few airline guys who are back bumming with us and taking mil leave from the airlines. As LTC's they are making more and not gone as much as with the airlines. It is a very bum friendly environment right now due to the high workload. If you are willing to deploy then it's never been better. I agree with previous poster, I am a Herc guy so our workload is huge right now but it varies Unit to Unit so the guys actually in the Unit right now are your best resource. Cost of living in your area is a big factor. But right now there are health insurance benefits for Reservists (Tricare Reserve Select) that are pretty good that weren't in place several years ago and I suspect as the ARC keeps working at historic high levels the benefits will be getting better.

As to why be in the Reserves to fly 135s or any other airplane? Because it doesn't suck!

[Bergman]

Regarding civilian employers, once again, odds are you're better off bumming/troughing. Once you take a peek at the civilian employers you will quickly discover that aside from an airline gig, the schedules just don't jive. It is very difficult for a brand new guy to fulfill the additional commitment that entails being new at that unit and maintain the 9-5.

I can back this up. There are 3 of us in my unit (out of 45 pilots) who have "9-5" jobs. All the other pilots are either airline guys or guard bums. While I maintain the reason for this is because most of the pilots have no marketable skills besides flying, it's also because working 2 schedules with 2 bosses and 70+ hours per week between both jobs, plus commuting time between jobs gets pretty tiring and challenging.

You could even go and get hired at the regional and then go on leave as much as possible, I consider that somewhat of a dick move to your FO bretheren, and would have a hard time keeping a straight face about it, but it is an option to deal with the only hit you might be taking, which is the health care issue. So I see little reason for you to actually need a second job, other than you want a lavish lifestyle and/or already have 3-4 kids and have no choice but to suck it up chase as much coin as you can.

I have met many guys who fly for the regionals but drop 90% of their flying schedule there in order to guard bum. They fly with the regional just enough to hold their line, stay current, and keep medical insurance rolling. The weird thing is that it's almost encouraged by the other non-military pilots...there is a definite "stick it to the man" mentality between pilots and management, so they all seem to support guys dropping trips due to military duty.

[Guest gatorpilot20]

Hey Guys,

Thanks for posting the above information! I’ve been searching for information on pay for a long time and I’m slowing starting to understand it, thanks to the above. I’ve also done research on www.military.com. I’ve heard that understanding the pay system is one of the most confusing issues in the military. I’m definitely starting to agree.

Are AFTP (both ground and flying) paid the same as drill pay? I would be part-time O-1 flying heavies and the 2008 rates says…1 Drill= $85.19. 4 Drills = $340.76.

What is a good estimate on per month salary for a p/t 0-1 flying 8- 10 times per month?

I'm not doing this for the money, just trying to fully understand the pay system.

Thanks again Herkbum for the info!