Air Traffic Controller info

[Guest RookiePilot]

I'd like to know if an Officer can be an ATC guy! I read on the AF.com site that there is a career choice called Air Traffic Control Mananger, exactly what does this position do, since it is considered a tech position, is the AF even recruiting tech guys! Thanks and sorry for another thread, i just need some advice, I'm coming up to my last few days before I pick something!

[Guest AV8NSP]

If that's what I think it is, it used to be called Airfield Operations or something like that. As an officer, you'd be more of a manager-type, from shift supervisor on up. Back in the day when I was a young 2Lt, I knew some guys who were going through the Operations Training Program (OTP) which is basically the pipeline for those guys, and they got trained and certified in different ATC positions. I wouldn't expect that you would be actively controlling as an O, except what you needed to do to maintain your certification. I'm sure someone else has more knowledge on this than I, so hopefully you can get some better input.

[Guest guardhopefull]

Rookie

I just got out of OTS with a fellow 2LT who is going into ATC. I believe it's still called Airfield Operations. He said the AF is doing a little hiring of guys for his field. Not that it helps much for you, but that was the latest from the front line.

[Skitzo]

Bottomn line I still think you get a nifty card thru the officer pipeline saying you are a certified controller. That being said, if you opt out of the military after your commmittment and you like that kind of thing you can go be an FAA controller for pretty good money. That was my backup plan if I didn't get a pilot slot.

[Guest RookiePilot]

Thanks for the info, I just think that I'd be happier as an ATC guy than a NAV. At least I'd get to work with A/C and I'd have a skill that I could use in the Civ workforce should I decide to not make the AF my career. One question though, as an Officer how "controlling" does a person do or, like most Officers are you stuck behind a desk pushing papers. I'd think for the first few years at least anyway, that an Officer would get to work in the "Cab", then maybe around O-4 you'd move to all cubicule role.

[backseatdriver]

Originally posted by RookiePilot:

I just think that I'd be happier as an ATC guy than a NAV. At least I'd get to work with A/C...

YGBSM. What do you think Navs do - not work with a/c? If you ask me, if you're gonna be sitting at a desk, it's a lot better to be in a plane than on the ground.

[Gravedigger]

Originally posted by backseatdriver:

YGBSM. What do you think Navs do - not work with a/c? If you ask me, if you're gonna be sitting at a desk, it's a lot better to be in a plane than on the ground.

[Guest C-21 Pilot]

At least I'd get to work with A/C and I'd have a skill that I could use in the Civ workforce should I decide to not make the AF my career.

I don't think he meant that Nav's don't work with A/C...I think he knows better. What I think he was getting at was that he "wants" to work with A/C, while gaining experience for a civilian job.

To me, this would be a no brainer, as I echo what BackSeatDriver mentioned:

A flying position, whether it be as a Pilot, Nav, ABM, Loadmaster, Flight Nurse, Flying Crew Chief, CSO, Raven, etc is MUCH more rewarding (in my opinion) that flying some desk.

If you become a Nav, after your flying commitment is up, you can crossflow into an Operations (Airfield Ops, ATC, etc) Field.

It's VERY difficult to do it the other way around

[Guest RookiePilot]

I'm just perparing for the outcome if I'm not selected as a pilot candidate. I just think that if I can't fly the "darn" airplane then for myself I speak, i'd rather not incur a time commitment. i'd rather serve a tour or two and, separate for the AF. Then pursue, my goal of flying in the Civ. sector.

[Guest RookiePilot]

at one time I even considered enlisting so that I could if not selected as a pilot candidate, could become an ATC guy. Only I'd hate to be the only E-1 with an M.S. in Mathmatics, and a 3.95GPA. Of course I'm just kidding as I know many enlisted persons have degrees, and that I'm sure I would not be an E-1, probably an E-3. My mom was an E-3 at enlistment and she only had an A.S. at the time, I believe after basic, or AIT (She was Army) she even got a W-2.

[Guest rlb]

Being a Nav isn't for everyone. If I had lost my PQ or washed out of UPT, Nav was going to be my last choice. I just can't see myself riding in an airplane and not flying it. That would be painfull to me. A lot of guys with prior civilian time feel this way. Also like RookiePilot said it's a longer commitment than a desk job and won't help you get a civilian job.

[Giggity]

Also like RookiePilot said it's a longer commitment than a desk job and won't help you get a civilian job.

I was under the impression that Navs could pursue a civilian career as a dispatcher who can make 6 figures depending on the airline and experience.

[Guest comanche]

dispatchers making 6 figures, I've never heard that. With pilots taking HUGE pay cuts I don't see this being possible.

[Giggity]

Let me rephrase... From what I've heard (not that it is something I plan on pursuing so I have not collected alot of info) is that a dispatcher entering a major international airline would on average start in the mid 30s to low 40's. However the 6 figure talk is the same as someone saying airline pilots make 200-300k a year. Yes pilots do but only with so many years of experience and with a major airline. But it certianly isn't the avergae (is it?) So the point I was trying to make is I for one believe a Nav job can give you some ties to a civilian career by becoming a dispatcher. This info soley comes from proffesors in an aviation program from my university but non who have dispatching experience so how accurate it is I can't be too sure of. Sorry for any confusion.

[Scooter14]

The dispatcher road is a long one, much like going from a commuter up through the ranks into the major airlines. You'll need to slug it out before you get picked up by the big boys, especially in this age of cutbacks. I don't have a lot of experience in this genre, but I had a couple friends get their tickets and look into the hiring process.

But, navs/WSOs/EWOs/Base Ops folks/WX personnel and Air Traffic Controllers can take a short course usually. Do a google search if you are interested.

[Guest Texas Aggie]

I am currently a nav and was previously an an airfield ops officer. Both jobs are great... airfield ops has more responsibility and is very high vis.

You can control traffic as much as you like; however, much of your job is personnel management, working with the FAA and assigned flying squadrons within the wing. Lots of airfield management issues... you are the airport boss once you become the commander.

The Ops Group commander and OSS commander are your supervisors and have very little knowledge of specific airfield and ATC issues. They completely rely on you for the answers. The MAJCOM will keep you at bay and in check... they have most of the answers and will check up on you from time to time.

Airport management and ATC entails more responsibility than nav. Although you can cause serious accidents in both professions, airfield ops has more issues (i.e. airfield construction, maintenance, controller training, NAVAID maintenance, instrument approach development, USAF & FAA airfield safety requirements).

The senior enlisted pretty much run the show and crack the whip. You get the butt-chewing when something goes wrong. I left the field because I wanted to fly. I went guard to fly and there is no guard ATC where I am stationed. In a perfect world, I would like to be an airfield ops officer and fly part-time. There have been a few of these guys in the active duty... not many.

Civilian transfer is key. You will be able to get a job either in ATC or Airport Management once you retire or get out. If you leave the AF prior to retirement, keep in mind the FAA has an age cut-off at 31. If you retire, they will hire you via DOD and FAA agreement. Airport Management pays low at first but most climb the ladder if they broaden their knowledge. Get an MBA, pilots license and try to get experience at large hub airports. FAA ATC pays very well from the start... plus its a government job and they are needing controllers right now.

If becoming a pilot is your goal, you can't go wrong with either career choice. Hell, if you can do both, go for it. I have had a lot of fun in both fields... navigator is less stressful and more adventerous.

[KickChick21]

I'm an enlisted tower controller. The officers that work in Airfield Ops are rarely in the tower cab or IFR room (radar facility). They have ratings in the facilities, but this is mostly so they understand what is going on in the facilities and what air traffic issues are important. They do not work on crew, or count as manning...they are in the tower about 8 hours a MONTH to get proficiency time and that's about it. They do not spend most of their time controlling...as Texas Aggie said they are more involved with personnel issues, airfield management, and liaison between the operations flight and the rest of the squadron (namely the commander).

However, the officers here have also told me that working in Airfield Ops is rewarding as well, and they are not upset that they don't work in the facilities controlling traffic. I guess it all depends on what would be more enjoyable to you, and what you would want to do in the civilian sector. I guess it really depends on how you want to spend the majority of your time!

[ 10. April 2005, 16:22: Message edited by: KickChick21 ]

[Guest SnakeT38]

FWIW...........if "controlling" airplanes is your

thing, be a FAIP, become an RSU controller and run

a VFR pattern with 12 solo Saudi's in it...want more, do it at night.........w/o ANY radar other than your eyes, it will be the longest 4 hours of your life!

You can also be a GFAC (choking noise), working with the Army, provice "final control" for fighters maybe even bombers with "troops in contact", bad news...........you "camp out" with the Army too..........I was always on the "lookout" for a camouflaged Winnebago, but never found it.

[Guest RookiePilot]

Thanks for info, I've been checking back on this thread periodically! I'm alittle baffled though Texas says that Officers can control traffic as much as they like yet KC21 you say as a enlisted ATC, that most of the time an Ops Manager would be stuck 'pushing papers' which would drive me crazy! I'm going out to Vanderburg AFB on 6 April to tour an base. Hopefully I'll get the chance to talk to some people there. Also I scheduled myself a Tower visit at BUR (Burbank, CA) ATCT so I can again go up and see the magic that happens when you mix WN 737's, C-172's, a UPS 767-300ER, FedEx A300, and a few KA-200 for your viewing pleasure. In addition to the busy class C airspace, the runways cross, RWYS 15-33, and 08-26, kinda neat from my perspective! I just hope, that I'm able to leave when my visit is over, last time I stayed like 6 1/2 hours, and that was with my G/F. Also I'm working on getting a visit at the 4th busiest airport in world LAX, although their traffic plan isn't even as complex as BUR. I talk too much, imagine my G/F has to put up with me like this all the time, even our "date's" are aviation related. Motor-Mouth OFF!!!!!!!!!

[Guest SnakeT38]

One thing about Bur. to everyone EXCEPT Herc drivers, the runways are like SIDEWALKS they

are so short and you better be on the taxi line

OR you are still on the runway or hit the terminal.

[Guest Texas Aggie]

KickChick 21 is right... many officers are rarely in the tower cabs or radar control rooms and officers are not assigned to the crews to work traffic on a daily basis. Officers must meet minimum monthly requirements set by the MAJCOM.

Once you get your tower and radar ratings at your assigned facilities, you would move over to get a handle on the airport ops side of the house. Lots of officers get bogged down in this arena. There is not too much paper-pushing in the airfield/ATC ops field other than the usual performance reports, decorations etc (you learn to get real good at this stuff). On the other hand, you can generate tons of paperwork by your own accord if it helps your organization. Many facilities have an assigned civilian secretary who works directly for the airfield ops commander.

At fast-pace facilities, it is smart for the officers to spend a considerable more time in the towers or IFR rooms. The enlisted control the traffic because they do it everyday and are very good at it. Officers who plug-in to monitor at high traffic times find that they save themselves considerable time and effort thwarting and investigating petty complaints from aircrews. Officers are constantly giving answers to complaints (this is part of their job). In addition, the officers also take input from the aircrews and the ops group on how to make their training and proficiency requirements run easier and smoother.

Good luck!

[Guest RookiePilot]

Thanks, for the info T. Aggie, so if i'd like to really work the traffic with the enlisted guys i should hope for a fast pace facility. I'm still hoping for a pilot slot, but working ATC would be a great second. Also just for info purposes if I really blow the AFOQT on 7 Apr, then would even have a shot a becoming an Officer anything! The reason i ask is that I'm not really a great test-taker, however I have maintained a high GPA since like High School, I have a grad degree, and hopefully before it's over I can get some decent LORs. How much of an influence does the board give to academics, is really my question! Also I got to visit BUR tower again today, the traffic flow got pretty heavy, and I even got to "mic up" and "control" a couple of airliners.

[Guest Matt Daniel]

RookiePilot,

You would be surprised about the variety of AFOQT scores found throughout the AF. Some people do not take tests well yet they are very smart. The standardized test system the AF has in place is just one measure to help determine aptitude for certain fields. I have known guys who have done very poorly on the AFOQT (some achieving minimum scores) and they are still selected for pilot, nav and ATC positions. Just give it your best.

During the mid 90s, the active duty pilot boards did look at AFOQT scores pretty seriously because of an abundance of UPT applications caused by force drawdowns in the early 90s. The AFOQT was used to weed through hundreds of applications.

AFOQT validity is cyclical in the AF and is dependent on the service needs at the time. If there are few pilot slots and many applicants, you can expect heavy competition from your peers with the AFOQT becoming a major determinant. As in the case during the late 90s, the floodgates were opened to UPT/UNT and the AFOQT took a back seat. The active duty rated officer boards vary in what they deem important when determining likely UPT/UNT candidates... each board has new and different representation. AFROTC boards rank their cadets a certain way also and the PAS carries tremendous weight when recommending to the AF who his/her top cadets are for slots. ANG/Reserve rated officer boards focus on the whole person concept.... these guys always want a face to face interview with you so the can see what type of person you are. They want to make sure your not just a pencil-neck geek who tests well and looks good on paper.

Just give your best at the AFOQT and if you do not like your scores, you can take the test up to four times within your AF career (with MAJCOM and AF waivers if you need them).

As far as wishing for a fast pace ATC facility if you go this route, keep in mind that as an officer, you can work as much traffic as you like providing you make the time for it. It really does not matter what type of facility you go to. The faster pace facilities just have more incidents based on the traffic volume. All facilities (slow and fast) have their little quirks that the officers eventually investigate.

Good Luck!

[Guest RookiePilot]

Thanks alot A&M, i'm going for the "TEST" on Thurs. I'm a praying person so I've been spending whatever moments I'm not studying with my arco books, or spending "quality time" with the G/F on my knees. (Not like that, if so then she'd be!) Since I've been waiting already like 5 1/2 mos. to take this "TEST" I don't want to wait another 6 mos. to re-take it. I'm really ready to go, I am very talented, I'm only 23.5, and I have already completed grad school, however my recruiter isn't very helpful, been through like three recruiters so far, and the guy that's doing recruiting now has told me that really he doesn't see the AF needing Officers at this time so he takes days off whenever he needs. Often times for weeks even, I really hope the AD AF isn't so careless. As a side note why is it that the USN has a "gung-ho" (terrible speller, I majored in numerical values) LT. that does the recruiting and, the AF has Enlisted personnel doing it's recruiting? If the USN weren't retiring the best A/C in the skies, my opinion at least, I'd be at least in OCS by now.

[ 02. April 2005, 18:32: Message edited by: RookiePilot ]

[Guest SHAVED DOG'S ASS]

I wouldn't want to be a nav or an airfield ops officer... or spend time with my girl on MY knees. If you want to be a pilot, find someone who will help you make it happen. When I was looking for an ROTC scholarship in 00' about half the people I ran into said that there was "no way". But then there are always those who are willing to help you out. Don't let some shoe clerk who hates his job get you thinking that you can't live your dream.

One more thing, don't enlist.